RNG Manipulation in FireRed/LeafGreen: Wild Pokémon Supported in RNG Reporter 9.93

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mattj said:
Nice work! 100 SRs! Good job! The more the merrier! At L5 without rare candies or vitamins it really is hard to tell if those really are the exact same IVs, but they could be. I'm still having trouble getting accurate IVs on this Zapdos at L50 with 1 of each vitamin AND 3 rare candies *sigh* Gonna try 2 of each vitamin, then 3 candies (writing down the stats at each point and plugging them into metalkids).
Click to expand...

Another Iv calc you could try is Marriland's (yes you read it correctly) the reasons for it are:

1.it allows you to see the range stats at lv 50 without you having to input the ones you have.
2. if you check input stats--and then change the evs on a certain stat, the calculator will immediately shift the ivs as well.
just a thought. The link to it is here
 
mattj, when you refer to Misdreavus, do you mean the Smogon user? If so, it will be great to get him on board as well.

Now, concerning your new results. I am inclined to believe that there is something within the save file that changes the seed, but I am doubtful that it is time in-game alone. chrish conducted an earlier experiment to determine whether adjusting the time saved in the file would effect the seeds generated. However, the end result was a negative:

chrish said:
We advanced the time in game (from 23:07 to 23:08) and immediately duplicated a result from the 23:07 time in game. It seems likely that time in game makes no difference.
Click to expand...

It is possible that the one minute difference was not enough to take effect, though I doubt this would be the case. Rather, I am inclined to believe that it is something else within the file; the most visible records lie within the "record of the adventure" so our answer may be there, but further tests will be needed to say for certain.

For those who are interested in conducting this sort of research, here is, off the top of my head, a list of things to consider:
  • What did I do in the game (change locations, move items, deposit Pokémon, etc.)?
  • How many of these actions were put into the replay at the beginning of the game? Which ones?
  • Am I able to hit the same spreads as before?
Hopefully we will be able to isolate the variables in the save file which cause the seed to change; assuming chrish had his character stay in one place when he allowed the clock to advance, the seed does not seem to change without action being taken by the player. If someone could corroborate these results, that would be fantastic.

I just hope that this variable is something measurable, or at the very least, detectable. The storyteller in Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald is proof positive that these games can and do keep track of miscellaneous statistics, but it could also somehow be based off the state of the RNG at the last save. If it is not something in the record, I would imagine that steps taken could be the/a factor. I form this belief from an old loadingnow quote I have in the first post:
loadingNOW said:
In RSFL walk around a little and save like once every 20 attempts so you get a different seed. Only the new games don’t have this problem at all.
Click to expand...
A way to test this theory is to have someone walk around for some amount of steps, then save their game, restart, and see if repeat spreads can be obtained.

On another note, I would like to welcome you to the research process, Zari. I am pleased to hear that you experienced some degree of success with the Nintendo DS; it is unlikely that most resetters will have a GameBoy Player and Gamestop controller at their disposal. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I would say that Charmander is not the most effective target for research, given the whole IVs issue (though I suppose you are done with him now anyway). Something like Mewtwo is likely a better target, and I'm sure you will reach him in due course. As for your question on whether time spent in the opening cinematic has an effect on the seed: at the moment, all research points to "yes".
 
Oh, yeah I meant Misdreavus. Great user huh?! :D

Yeah I need to keep better track of that and I will eventually. As for this new save I've gotten some really, really good results so far. I'm up to... 23 now with many many repeats, and one that repeats several times, so I'm gonna stretch it up to... 50 say? and see what I find there. Oh, and I've been dumping 3 vitamins a piece into each stat and recording the stats before and after, and so far it's been able to give me IVs on each one, so hopefully I'll have actual PIDs for y'all next time and not just stats.

Hopefully, if that one keeps repeating, and I can get some help with that equation to find the seed, I'll pick a target frame and start testing the frame rate. Would it be any different for Zapdos than for Mewtwo? If memory serves me correctly, they're both in places with no NPCs and wild pokemon all around them.

[edit]
Sweet. Done with 50. Lots of great results! Now to find the IVs/PIDs and post em in here...
 
I'd like to try and help with this in-between making VGC team's and real life. Anyhow, I own a legit Fire Red and Leaf Green cartridge's. I came up with the following to test if in-game time affects the seed.
Procedure:
1. Get both games to a place where you can find wild Pokemon, preferably the same place because that takes out the quiet/noisy factor. Bring a Pokemon with Sweet Scent.
2. Start up the game with a metronome and catch a Pokemon. Write down Natures and Iv's or stats depending on the level.
3. Repeat step 2 with the other game.
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 about50 times.
If you see any flaws in that please tell me.

Also I thought I could run-through the elite four one time in each game so that maybe the recaps of what you did will be the same. The time on the FR cart is 50 hours and the LG's is over 350 so if there is a difference, I should be able to tell. I never caught the Mewtwo in FR so I can also do something with that, but I'm not sure how we can do anything with that with our current info beyond what Mattj is doing and he has already started and has the GameBoy Player and the turbo setting which I don't and will make it alot harder. Also, do you guys think there will be any difference a DS and a GBA, because I have both.
 
NW that sounds like an awesome idea! Best of luck on it! I can't wait to see your results!!

So I got all my ducks in a row (almost) and recorded another 50 Soft Resets, this time with the actual IVs (lolz). After I got the IVs, I plugged their info into RNG Reporter's "IVs to PID / Seed" Box. That gave me the PID and a seed. Following what I believe NeoSyrex said to do, I then put THAT SEED into his lil FR/LGseedfinder.ex program and it gave me what I "believe" was the starting seed and the frame that I was hitting in each particular instance. "At least that's how I THINK I'm supposed to do it..." I actually think that may be right, because the results of doing it that way came out surprisingly consistent!

For example,
1) if you look at the Spreads Breakdown, I got Attempt #2 7 times and Attempt #46 1 time. They're both on the same seed, but are 2 frames apart.
2) my top two seeds were only 1 apart.
3) almost all my frames were in the 490ish range.
4) like 1/2 my starting seeds were in the c05ish range

This would all make sense, since my Time from SR to Zapdos and my button presses were super-humanly consistent... No I mean literally. I was using a machine to lessen the effects of human discrepancy simply to speed up this research! xD

Soft Reset Results:
Code: 
Attempt) Nature: HP / Atk / Def / SAtk / SDef / Spd  :  Seed (RNG Rep)  :  PID  : Frame (Syrex’s): Starting Seed (Syrex’s)
1)    (Naïve): 30 / 13 / 30 / 28 / 19 / 7  :  9D522615:  DE62CCD2:  -491: c298
2)    (Mild): 3 / 24 / 9 / 6 / 30 / 0  :  16D970A0  :  9BADB6A6  :  -493: c05
3)    (Calm): 14 / 23 / 3 / 28 / 0 / 6  :  E18DC6F4  :  84BB10B4  :  -494: c0E
4)    (Adamant): 6 / 0 / 23 / 20 / 9 / 20  :  B7FF87C3  :  C85EB6FC  :  -495: 9e0a
5)    (Mild): 29 / 28 / 29 / 24 / 16 / 12  :  87E12865  :  310E584B  :  -493: c28e
6)    (Lax): 30 / 16 / 23 / 28 / 25 / 1  :  A7185615  :  798C78D5  :  -493: bfe
7)    (Impish): 1 / 21 / 27 / 31 / 14 / 13  :  EF9B6CAB  :  9D2D78B  :  -490: c291
8)    (Impish): 25 / 4 / 7 / 18 / 29 / 9  :  74994843  :  723B401A  :  -493: c04
9)    (Impish): 1 / 21 / 27 / 31 / 14 / 13  REPEAT
10)    (Calm): 24 / 26 / 10 / 21 / 0 / 26  :  5019EBE2  :  E50AD3B4  :  -495: bfd
11)    (Mild): 29 / 28 / 29 / 24 / 16 / 12  REPEAT
12)    (Impish): 25 / 4 / 7 / 18 / 29 / 9  REPEAT
13)    (Mild): 3 / 24 / 9 / 6 / 30 / 0  REPEAT
14)    (Lax): 30 / 16 / 23 / 28 / 25 / 1  REPEAT
15)    (Impish): 25 / 4 / 7 / 18 / 29 / 9  REPEAT
16)    (Impish): 1 / 21 / 27 / 31 / 14 / 13  REPEAT
17)    (Brave): 27 / 5 / 1 / 23 / 3 / 14  :  CB1ADBE5  :  10B4E18D  :  -493 c0e
18)    (Brave): 27 / 5 / 1 / 23 / 3 / 14  REPEAT
19)    (Docile): 23 / 30 / 14 / 13 / 31 / 14  :  5B59C15A  :  EE92A3BD  :  -493: c07
20)    (Impish): 25 / 4 / 7 / 18 / 29 / 9  REPEAT
21)    (Mild): 3 / 24 / 9 / 6 / 30 / 0  REPEAT
22)    (Impish): 25 / 4 / 7 / 18 / 29 / 9  REPEAT
23)    (Naïve): 20 / 8 / 24 / 24 / 1 / 12  :  5F7FFF0E  :  17487C0A  :  -197: ea53 or -490: 9a9c
24)    (Mild): 3 / 24 / 9 / 6 / 30 / 0  REPEAT
25)    (Quirky): 27 / 22 / 5 / 19 / 18 / 17  :  6EA1A17C  :  AD66BBED  :  -493: c291
26)    (Naïve): 30 / 13 / 30 / 28 / 19 / 7  REPEAT
27)    Lonely (forgot to write the IVs down x_X)
28)    (Relaxed): 12 / 24 / 1 / 10 / 4 / 12  :  7C0A3D69  :  61141748  :  -198: ea53 or -491: 9a9c
29)    (Impish): 25 / 4 / 7 / 18 / 29 / 9  REPEAT
30)    (Mild): 3 / 24 / 9 / 6 / 30 / 0  REPEAT
31)    (Mild): 3 / 24 / 9 / 6 / 30 / 0  REPEAT
32)    (Mild): 10 / 6 / 24 / 26 / 1 / 19  :  310ECED7  :  C30CF79D  :  -495: c28e
33)    (Lax): 30 / 16 / 23 / 28 / 25 / 1  REPEAT
34)    (Impish): 25 / 4 / 7 / 18 / 29 / 9  REPEAT
35)    (Serious): 2 / 7 / 13 / 25 / 31 / 29  :  4177ED9E  :  29B50AA  :  -495: c09
36)    (Lax): 30 / 16 / 23 / 28 / 25 / 1  REPEAT
37)    (Mild): 3 / 24 / 9 / 6 / 30 / 0  REPEAT
38)    (Lax): 30 / 16 / 23 / 28 / 25 / 1  REPEAT
39)    (Lax): 30 / 16 / 23 / 28 / 25 / 1  REPEAT
40)    (Impish): 25 / 4 / 7 / 18 / 29 / 9  REPEAT
41)    (Bashful): 20 / 6 / 4 / 11 / 16 / 23  :  8A0BA81A  :  9FDAF24A  :  -491: c09
42)    (Modest): 5 / 15 / 6 / 6 / 11 / 31  :  D39FBD20  :  BCO82D63  :  -493: c285
43)    (Careful): 2 / 19 / 23 / 13 / 30 / 30  :  8FC0AEEA  :  CCD29D52  :  -490: c298
44)    (Lax): 30 / 16 / 23 / 28 / 25 / 1  REPEAT
45)    (Impish): 1 / 21 / 27 / 31 / 14 / 13  REPEAT
46)    (Quiet): 31 / 2 / 23 / 24 / 10 / 17  :  9BADED0A  :  F8C02703  :  -495: c05
47)    (Mild): 2 / 1 / 15 / 25 / 0 / 19  :  C20480E1  :  4340CA35  :  -490: c297
48)    (Mild): 2 / 1 / 15 / 25 / 0 / 19  REPEAT
49)    (Naïve): 20 / 8 / 24 / 24 / 1 / 12  REPEAT
50)    (Mild): 2 / 1 / 15 / 25 / 0 / 19  REPEAT
Spreads Breakdown:
Code: 
Attempt #) (Nature): HP / Atk / Def / SAtk / SDef / Spd : Seed (RNG Rep) : PID : Frame (Syrex’s): Seed (Syrex’s) : # Appearances/Total SRs : Percentage
8)(Impish): 25 / 4 / 7 / 18 / 29 / 9  :  74994843  :  723B401A  :  -493: c04  :  8/50  :  16%
2)(Mild): 3 / 24 / 9 / 6 / 30 / 0  :  16D970A0  :  9BADB6A6  :  -493: c05  :  7/50  :  14%
6)(Lax): 30 / 16 / 23 / 28 / 25 / 1  :  A7185615  :  798C78D5  :  -493: bfe  :  7/50  :  14%
7)(Impish): 1 / 21 / 27 / 31 / 14 / 13  :  EF9B6CAB  :  9D2D78B  :  -490: c291  :  4/50  :  8%
47) (Mild): 2 / 1 / 15 / 25 / 0 / 19  :  C20480E1  :  4340CA35  :  -490: c297  :  3/50  :  6%
1)(Naïve): 30 / 13 / 30 / 28 / 19 / 7  :  9D522615:  DE62CCD2:  -491: c298  :  2/50  :  4%
5)(Mild): 29 / 28 / 29 / 24 / 16 / 12  :  87E12865  :  310E584B  :  -493: c28e  :  2/50  :  4%
17) (Brave): 27 / 5 / 1 / 23 / 3 / 14  :  CB1ADBE5  :  10B4E18D  :  -493 c0e  :  2/50  :  4%
23) (Naïve): 20 / 8 / 24 / 24 / 1 / 12  :  5F7FFF0E  :  17487C0A  :  -197: ea53 or -490: 9a9c  :  2/50  :  4%
3)(Calm): 14 / 23 / 3 / 28 / 0 / 6  :  E18DC6F4  :  84BB10B4  :  -494: c0E  :  1/50  :  2%
4)(Adamant): 6 / 0 / 23 / 20 / 9 / 20  :  B7FF87C3  :  C85EB6FC  :  -495: 9e0a  :  1/50  :  2%
10) (Calm): 24 / 26 / 10 / 21 / 0 / 26  :  5019EBE2  :  E50AD3B4  :  -495: bfd  :  1/50  :  2%
19) (Docile): 23 / 30 / 14 / 13 / 31 / 14  :  5B59C15A  :  EE92A3BD  :  -493: c07  :  1/50  :  2%
25) (Quirky): 27 / 22 / 5 / 19 / 18 / 17  :  6EA1A17C  :  AD66BBED  :  -493: c291  :  1/50  :  2%
27) Lonely (forgot to write the IVs down x_X)  :  1/50  :  2%
28) (Relaxed): 12 / 24 / 1 / 10 / 4 / 12  :  7C0A3D69  :  61141748  :  -198: ea53 or -491: 9a9c  :  1/50  :  2%
32) (Mild): 10 / 6 / 24 / 26 / 1 / 19  :  310ECED7  :  C30CF79D  :  -495: c28e  :  1/50  :  2%
35) (Serious): 2 / 7 / 13 / 25 / 31 / 29  :  4177ED9E  :  29B50AA  :  -495: c09  :  1/50  :  2%
41) (Bashful): 20 / 6 / 4 / 11 / 16 / 23  :  8A0BA81A  :  9FDAF24A  :  -491: c09  :  1/50  :  2%
42) (Modest): 5 / 15 / 6 / 6 / 11 / 31  :  D39FBD20  :  BCO82D63  :  -493: c285  :  1/50  :  2%
43) (Careful): 2 / 19 / 23 / 13 / 30 / 30  :  8FC0AEEA  :  CCD29D52  :  -490: c298  :  1/50  :  2%
46) (Quiet): 31 / 2 / 23 / 24 / 10 / 17  :  9BADED0A  :  F8C02703  :  -495: c05  :  1/50  :  2%
Starting Seeds Breakdown:
Code: 
c04  -  8/50
c05  -  8/50
bfe  -  7/50
c291  -  5/50
c298  -  3/50
c0E  -  3/50
c28e  -  3/50
ea53 or 9a9c  -  3/50
c297  -  3/50
c09  -  2/50
9e0a  -  1/50
bfd  -  1/50
c07  -  1/50
c285  -  1/50
SUMMARY:
50 Soft Resets
22 Different Spreads
14 Different Starting Seeds
9/22 (41%) Spreads Repeated Once Or More
10/14 (71%) Starting Seeds Repeated Once or More
37/50 (74%) Soft Resets Yielded A Repeated Spread
46/50 (92%) Soft Resets Yielded A Repeated Starting Seed

I'm gonna take a break and wait for y'all to digest this before I start testing the frame advancement, and actually shooting for a target frame. I'd hate to try and try and try, only to find out I'd made some obvious mistake (been there done that).

However, I do have a nice one picked out ;D
Seed: c04 Spread: Naive-28/10/31/29/31/31 Frame: 44538 (12:22:30)
Click to expand...
Not a flawless Zapdos, and it has a crappy Dragon HP, but it should make a decent test with a decently usuable (and 110% brag-able) goal. Unfortunately, I didn't bring very many balls, and I only have 2 pokes with me, but meh, with a like...16% chance of hitting my seed, I've actually faced worse odds before. :P
 
Matt, were there still some calculations you'd like me to do or a program that I could write to help out? I wasn't sure if we figured out that the formula you wanted me to make into a program was actually one of the existing ones (Syrex, etc).

Also, could you tell us the exact brand name and model of the controller you've been using? Thanks!
 
Misdreavus said:
Matt, were there still some calculations you'd like me to do or a program that I could write to help out? I wasn't sure if we figured out that the formula you wanted me to make into a program was actually one of the existing ones (Syrex, etc).

Also, could you tell us the exact brand name and model of the controller you've been using? Thanks!
Click to expand...

Well, Syrex's directions seemed a bit confusing, but I THINK I actually did it right, so there may not be any need for another program like we discussed. I BELIEVE his program takes RNG Reporter's seed and steps it back through the reverse RNG equation and gives you the 2 byte FR/LG Starting seed. At least when I went ahead and tried it that way, it seemed to give me very very consistent results.

Oh, and my controler...

It has a cord, it's white, with some silver plating, a GameStop logo right in the center, and has a programable turbo button just above the L button with a little red blinking light between the turbo button and the start button that shows you how fast it's going. On the back it's got "Gamestop: G3 Controler" written on it. Mine is white like THIS but basically it's just THIS.

And thanks again for wanting to help out. If my starting seed data is correct this controller give you INSANE consistency!! I wish they had something like this for the DS. :*(
 
I eagerly anticipate your next experiment, mattj; from what I can tell, you are following NeoSyrex's directions, so I would assume that everything is being done correctly. However, I find it interesting that in your tests, you were able to hit both "odd" and "even" frames (though the dominant result was certainly the former). This should not have happened if our understanding of the RNG is correct, in that it only cycles through "odd" or "even" frames in a "noisy" area. . . unless the Power Plant is actually "quiet"?

I suppose it would be worthwhile to try opening and closing the menu before getting Zapdos, to see if this changes your results from predominantly odd to mostly even. Or repeating the experiment in Cerulean Cave with Mewtwo (who is more commonly known to be in a "noisy" area). Though I suppose you will be able to tell either way once you try to aim for your Zapdos spread. It will be interesting to see what comes of this.

No winners, I assume that the intent of your experiment is to see whether you are able to hit the same seed or spread, correct? This should be possible on both games. . . it is very likely that you will encounter different spreads on the different games, as not only is your time in-game different, but you have likely taken many more actions in LeafGreen that could have altered the seed between saves—we do not yet know what (if anything) in the save file alters the seed. So if you are trying to get an identical result for both cartridges, I will save you some trouble and tell you that the results will, in all likelihood, be different. Additionally, not much research has been done on wild Pokémon, so keep this in mind when you are resetting for them.

There is a different experiment we could benefit from having the results of, which only involves one game cartridge. It is a simpler way of testing whether or not the time in-game or steps have an effect upon the seed, and these should be tested in that order. The way I envision such an experiment would be as follows:

  1. Go to some area in the game with a wild Pokémon/legendary (such as your Mewtwo in FireRed), and save the game in front of it.
  2. Soft reset multiple times in an attempt to obtain duplicate spreads, recording your results.
  3. Enter your game again, this time waiting some predetermined amount of time (say, ten minutes, or even an hour if you just leave your game on for that long). Then save your game.
  4. Repeat step two with this new in-game time.
  5. If the resets in step four repeated results from step two, enter the game again. This time, walk around some number of steps (let's say twenty or so) within the area you are in. Then save your game again.
  6. Repeat step two with the new save with steps taken.
This both helps us confirm chrish's results; that time in-game does not have an effect on the RNG, and see whether or not steps taken will alter the RNG. Unless I am missing something, I fear that your experiment as proposed introduces too many intervening variables.

Also, concerning the GBA VS. Nintendo DS issue. I do not believe that choosing one system over the other will have an effect on the RNG. There was speculation during Emerald research that the system chosen and the amount of battery power it had left slightly altered the pace of its RNG. However, I believe that this was before it was widely known that Emerald's RNG runs at "about" sixty frames per second; results that did not agree with Emloop's time were attributed to the aforementioned factors rather than a universal quality of the game itself. Of course, human error would likely make timings slightly different for each individual regardless. In any case, I do not believe that your system of choice will alter the results of the experiment, but I would advise that you stick to the one you have chosen for the duration of your tests.
 
Oh, you know, about the frames. When I put some of the seeds in RNG Reporter and looked for good spreads, I also happened to check the frame that I hit, and it seems that at least some of Syrex's frames are off by like 1, which is common (as is the case with other programs like PokeRNG). I didn't take the time to look, but I may actually have been hitting all even or all odd, but it just showed them off by one or something. I might check that later, or anybody else could just by putting all of those seeds from my list up there in RNG reporter, and then looking for the frame listed next to it to see if it's correct or off by 1.
 
Well thanks Arseus, but I just booted up my FR cart and I'm in front of Articuno and the reason I probably never soft reset for him is because platinum came out and RNG abused-ones out class SR's by alot. So I'll try your method on Articuno. I'll post my results whenever I get around to it and stop playing HG.

@Mattj: I may have found a way to do what your doing on a wii. Here is a way to play GBA games on your Wii. Here and Here are the things you would need to buy, plus your controller. I may try this, if my Wii is not firmware version 3.0 or greater because it says that will stop the AR for working. I'm about to go check. Figured I should just post this in case anyone else is interested.

Edit: Mattj the AGP does not work without a AR for Wii on the free-loader setting. I also found it would be cheaper to just buy a GC, a controller and a GB player. That way you could buy XD too and tutor Self Destruct onto a Mewtwo from FR/LG, one of the few reasons not to use a flawless from HG/SS. Here, Here and Here you can buy a GC off of gamestop.com.
 
No winners said:
Well thanks Arseus, but I just booted up my FR cart and I'm in front of Articuno and the reason I probably never soft reset for him is because platinum came out and RNG abused-ones out class SR's by alot. So I'll try your method on Articuno. I'll post my results whenever I get around to it and stop playing HG.

@Mattj: I may have found a way to do what your doing on a wii. Here is a way to play GBA games on your Wii. Here and Here are the things you would need to buy, plus your controller. I may try this, if my Wii is not firmware version 3.0 or greater because it says that will stop the AR for working. I'm about to go check. Figured I should just post this in case anyone else is interested.
Click to expand...

Oh! Ha! Yeah! The Advance Game Port! Yeah, they've actually got one of those at the local Slackers for like 40$, but I just happened to find a cheap GBPlayer for 14$ at gamestop one time so I picked that up instead. Yeah. never thought about it, but that would actually work on a Wii. Too bad the GBPlayer doesn't physically fit on the Wii.

Why would you need the AR though? Usually the AGP works just fine by itself I thought...

Oh, and about the Articuno, I already have a timid HP Ground 70 one so I didn't need mine (shoulda done it anyway,) but actually if what I've done so far is correct, you can seriously get as good of RNGs off this as DPPt. It's because it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay quicker and easier to hit crazily high frames in FR/LG cuz they speed along at 60 or 120 frames per second compared to like... maybe... 50 journal flips per minute in Platinum, and since there's no journal in HG/SS (at least that I've found so far) crazily high frames are out of the question in that.
 
Just posting to confirm that Mattj's original speculation was correct. For about two seconds after pressing continue the game does not read/register button presses or it suppresses them and reads them after the two seconds where it is loading the game.
 
Great work, mattj! It's nice to see that the range of frames is consistent. There's one thing I'd like to ask about, though... hopefully it's not too stupid of a question: What exactly is the difference between "seed" and "starting seed?" Using what knowledge I have from Emerald and 4th gen combined, plus the info in this thread, I would think that FR/LG's seed would be at least partially determined from the time spent (and possibly buttons pressed during) between SRing and selecting "Continue," and would then stay the same until you reset your game like in 4th gen (catch 50 Pokémon, beat the Elite Four 20 times, leave the game on for a week... it all wouldn't change the seed), and the frame would be the only thing that would change after entering the game world, most likely advancing 60 times per second like Emerald. Am I incorrect here?

Also, when I went to GameStop today to pickup HeartGold and SoulSilver, I saw the exact controller that mattj used for sale for $14.99. I didn't pick it up yet, as I wanted to look to see if I could find it anywhere else for cheaper, but if anyone's interested, I'll be happy to get a picture of the package for anyone else who might want to see about getting one.
 
oh what i meant by two different seed s is that when you put your info into r n g reporter's i v to p i d box it gives you a seed but for some reason its not your starting seed you have to run that through steve's program to get your starting seed. speaking of which i'm gonna run a few tests tonight after work. gonna hold a till zap dos and then wait exactly one minute and check the frames a dozen or so times. then try walking over to a volt orb with repels on and see if walking changes anything.
 
Mattj, perhaps we can start making csv files for each seed that you found, and maybe filter for some specific ivs and hidden powers, etc. It would actually be helpful for you and others who get the gba port and turbo controller, once everyone can hit the seeds you are getting, since those seem the most consistent. I can do some work tonight using the seeds you've obtained. It would be a pain in the ass to pray that you hit the seed and then hope that you hit the right frame after that, but at least the frame selection might be better than that of the starting seed that starts at 0 in emerald.

Edit: Since it is all but confirmed that button presses during the intro sequences determine the starting seed, does that imply that the rng starts moving when you hit continue in the opening menu, as it does in 4th gen, or if it starts when The "journal" closes? I can try verifying this tonight as well, since it doesn't matter what seed i actually hit. That is, if I can peel myself away from soul silver long enough :nerd:
 
LOL yeah i picked up soul silver too. c s v would be great but i have no idea how to make them. I'll also test opening and closing the menu he i have time tonight to see what effects that has on the frame.

Oh, and I really DO think the spread selection will be much better than emerald. you only have 1 and only 1 seed to go off of in emerald. here I have at least 2 common ones, and really suspect there are tons and tons and tons more to choose from! I haven't even gotten to slowing down my turbo yet, or pausing or anything!!

[edit]
I "think" the frames begin advancing the moment your "recap thingy" starts. Reason being, all my frames were 490ish. I just timed the begining of the intro thingy to fighting Zapdos, and it came out to be 4 seconds. 490/120 is about 4, so.... looks like the frames are advancing at "120/second" even while the "recap thingy" is going on. This would make sense, because what a frame really is, is a "movement in the game". Watch one of Syberia's vids on youtube and it explains it well, as he manually advances the frames in Saphire, you can see the mist and waves slowly move frame by frame. I noticed this very thing while speeding through the "recap thingy" with my turbo button. I'd notice small things like the movement of the water fountain in Celadon City that would vary ever so slightly, etc, etc...

I suppose I could check this tonight once I've tested the "waiting ingame for 2 minutes" thing first. I'll then check by letting the "recap thingy" play out all the way, and then still encounter Zapdos at 2 mins and see if there's any difference in frames...
 
Mewtwo and Zapdos Spreads

I compiled some cvs files of mixed, special, physical, hidden power, zapdos, and mewtwo spreads, since most people seem to be going for zapdos and mewtwo =)
Here is the link:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/mt4z0hczt2i/c04_mew2_zappy.zip

I used 0C04 as the starting seed as that was one of mattj's most common seeds. I'll do more later, as it is a surprising amount of work. mattj, if you want to do this, rngreporter can create CSV files; just select a list of spreads, right click anywhere on the list and do Output to CSV File.
 
NixHex said:
I compiled some cvs files of mixed, special, physical, hidden power, zapdos, and mewtwo spreads, since most people seem to be going for zapdos and mewtwo =)
Here is the link:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/mt4z0hczt2i/c04_mew2_zappy.zip

I used 0C04 as the starting seed as that was one of mattj's most common seeds. I'll do more later, as it is a surprising amount of work. mattj, if you want to do this, rngreporter can create CSV files; just select a list of spreads, right click anywhere on the list and do Output to CSV File.
Click to expand...

Wow! I seriously appreciate that, though I must caution that I do not know if that particular seed can be easily obtained by anyone at any point in their game. If you'll notice before, I didn't get any IVs on my last large Soft Reset, but I did get completely different spreads, which leads me to believe that I was actually getting completely different seeds back then. I haven't gotten to the point of testing it yet, but I do believe that there is either something:
1) dealing with your time in game
2) dealing with saving after walking around
3) dealing with what point your are in your game
that effects your seed too.

Last time, I got really consistent spreads, but then realized I needed more vitamins to get accurate IVs, so I stepped out of the power plant, flew off and fought those two "beauty" trainers that give you a ton of cash, until I had enough dough to buy 3 of each vitamin. Then I flew back and saved in front of zapdos again, and when I got around to SRing I was getting completely different spreads (the spreads in my last post, and the ones that I'm still currently getting.) It still needs more testing (will get around to that), but I'm just not sure everyone will be able to get that specific seed, or even any seeds relatively near what I'm getting at the moment. We'll see soon enough though.

NEW NEWS!!

So I wanted to verify that I really was using syrex's program correctly. What I did was I SR'd like normal, holding down the Turbo'd A button, BUT I tried my best to hit a timer the very moment that I hit "continue" and it went "Di-ing!!", and as soon as I saw Zapdos, i let off A and waited till exactly 2 mintues to encounter Zapdos. I then recorded his IVs and Nature and ran it through RNG Reporter's IVs to PID box and then took that seed and ran it through Syrex's program to get my "Starting Seed".

Last time I got some very convincing results that lead me to believe that I was doing it right:
1) if you look at the Spreads Breakdown, I got Attempt #2 7 times and Attempt #46 1 time. They're both on the same seed, but are 2 frames apart.
2) my top two seeds were only 1 apart.
3) almost all my frames were in the 490ish range.
4) like 1/2 my starting seeds were in the c05ish range
Click to expand...
but I wanted to try the above to make absolutely sure. I figured that if I was doing it right, I'd end up with seeds that I'd hit before and consistent frames that were just much higher. That's exactly what I found:
1) (Docile): 22 / 12 / 0 / 20 / 28 / 10 : E3C4BDC6 : D2A5F9BB : -7279: c291
2) (Naïve): 5 / 16 / 17 / 0 / 16 / 25 : 1EFFA165 : 13588F22 : -7279: c04
3) (Quiet): 28 / 25 / 10 / 30 / 18 / 11 - 12 : 6612C97C : 8CDF814B : -7273: c05
4) (Jolly): 20 / 24 / 27 / 27 / 31 / 28 : A=E8E8E11C : 34255766 : -7285: c09
Click to expand...
I stopped at 4 SR's cuz they were all completely consistent with my prior results. This'll also give y'all something to go off of with reference to frame advancement in the Power Plant. I took "pretty dang close to" 2 mins between "continue" and encountering Zapdos.

Anyway. I'll go ahead and go through that CSV file and find a good Adamant/Naive/Hasty spread and see if I can't get a good Electrode/Voltorb for my bud (the one that cleared out this cart this far for me). He wants and "all first gen team" for Nats, and I told him I'd RNG him one! xD

It'll be really re-assuring to actually have some concrete results from all this research finally! (aside of Syrex's Zapdos that I've seen personally IRL lol! xD)

Gonna check and see real quick if it hurts anything walking over to one of those electrodes/voltorbs and trying to capture it. I've got a fresh repel on so that shouldn't be a problem, but if it's like DPPtHGSS it ought to advance my frame by at least something. Either way I can just calibrate for the difference after a try or two.


[EDIT!!]
This is gonna be my first target:
Voltorb/Electrode (whichever it is! xD)
Jolly Soundproof (>_<) 30/30/27/20/31/31
Seed: bfe Frame: 57116 (15:51:93)
Not the greatest Electrode ever, but it's decently quick, close to perfect (Soundproof x_x) and if anything I can use it for a parent for a better one in my Soul Silver. :P Oh, and it'll be hard evidence that all this works. :D
 
mattj said:
This is gonna be my first target:
Voltorb/Electrode (whichever it is! xD)
Jolly Soundproof (>_<) 30/30/27/20/31/31
Seed: bfe Frame: 57116 (15:51:93)
Not the greatest Electrode ever, but it's decently quick, close to perfect (Soundproof x_x) and if anything I can use it for a parent for a better one in my Soul Silver. :P Oh, and it'll be hard evidence that all this works. :D
Click to expand...
Cool! Where exactly did you find this spread, though?

mattj said:
c s v would be great but i have no idea how to make them.
Click to expand...
If you're interested in making a CSV file, it's pretty simple. Just start a new file in Notepad (or any other plain text editor) and whenever you use a comma, it signals a new cell in that row. You move on to the next row simply by pressing Enter. If you want your cells to line up, you'll want to have the same number of commas in every line. When you're finished, make sure to save it as .CSV, rather than the default .TXT.

For example, I created a CSV using the data you gave for that Electrode. Here's what I typed into Notepad:

Code: 
HP, Atk, Def, SpA, SpD, Spe
30, 30, 27, 20, 31, 31
...and once I opened it in Microsoft Excel, here's what it looked like:
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/3650/csvinexcel.jpg

Ironically, this is pretty much the layout that you've been using when you've posted your spreads on here! FYI, the spaces I put between the comma and the text in the next cell are not necessary; I just like them because I think they make it look neater in Notepad :p.

Best of luck, and don't hesitate to ask if you could use my help for any binary/hex math or programming!
 
OH i just looked through the top three seed s that i've been hitting and set the i v s to generally what i wanted. I found that spread in the b f e seed i've been hitting.

[edit]
Decided to run a few tests before getting that Orb. Here's my first one. It's basically just something to compare the rest to. I SR'd, Held A, Hit a timer when the gleam of light was between the B and O and it went Di-ing!! (8.3 seconds before CONTINUE), let off of A when the music started and I saw Zapdos, then waited till 2:00 sharp to encounter.

Time to Frame Calibration Test:
Code: 
Attempt,  Nature, HP, Atk, Def, SAtk, SDef, Spd, Starging Seed, Frame
1, Impish, 23, 4, 18, 11, 26, 25, c28f, 6777
2, Modest, 20, 7, 24, 9, 20, 6, c285, 6771 (didn't close Review quite fast enough)
3, Hardy, 28, 11, 12, 17, 1, 26, c04, 6775
4, Hasty, 5, 14, 26, 6, 7, 18, c28f, 6775
5, Bold, 30, 30, 1, 8, 31, 6, bfd, 6765 (Hit select for a moment while waiting in front of Zapdos)
6, Naive, 9, 17, 11, 3, 10, 31, bfe, 6774
7, Calm, 25, 22, 15, 19, 20, 1, c29a, 6763
8, Calm, 18,  8, 18, 13, 20, 4, c297, 6778
9, Hardy, 10, 29, 0, 27, 15, 23, c05, 6771
10, Lax, 28, 23, 28, 10, 7, 9, c05, 6775
Looks like a steady 60 Frames/Second if they start running the moment you hit continue.


Next up I'll let the Replay play out completely and still encounter Zapdos at 2:00 to see what effect the Replay has on the frame...
 
Hi there!

As i used the information given in this thread to catch some great Method-1 pokes with the help of save states i am know trying to catch wild ones.

First thing i noticed: I often got two different PIDs on the same frame.
Chances were about 50% for each.

Here are my results, (catches done in Pokemon Tower level 3 with sweet scent):

Code: 
Frame SEED     Method PID       RNG-Reporter Frame
===== ======== ====== ========  ==================
1     FCC45AAD   4    300D8209   1
1,2   300DBE5F   4    59C40255   3
2,3   BD383D09   1    CBF83181   -
3,4   154B4F8B   1    9F31D3CF   -         
4     B5E323A9   1    CA0D244A   -
4,5   E9FA12AF   1    C10BB385
5,6   8209B21C   4    0255300D
6,7   04E485BE   1    01E96501
7,8   A9AB0182   1    D7CE84D1
[...]

Note that the PID 0255300D from Frame 5,6 uses the first and second part from PID on Frame 1 and 1,2. By accident?
The save state was made with the cursor on sweet scent and then activated with autofire.
The autofire function could be the reason why there are multiple PIDs on the "same" frame, as i do not know if it is fast enough to activate sweet scent in the active fame.

Current PID seems to be stored after generation on 0x0202402Ch.
 
mingot said:
Well, here is the formula for the reverse RNG, which can be used to work backwards looking for an initial seed:

Code: 
        public UInt32 GetPrevious32BitNumber()
        {
            seed = 0xeeb9eb65 * seed + 0xa3561a1;

            return seed;
        }
Click to expand...

Being a math geek, I'm really interested in seeing a proof showing that this indeed gives the previous value. Since I cannot find such a formula on any math websites or articles related to LCRNG's, I'm trying to prove it myself. I obviously trust the formula since I have seen it in action but I want to know where those numbers come from. Any more info would be greatly appreciated!

Edit: I know I can probably prove this by induction but it still doesn't tell me where those constants came from. Thanks!
 
NixHex said:
Being a math geek, I'm really interested in seeing a proof showing that this indeed gives the previous value. Since I cannot find such a formula on any math websites or articles related to LCRNG's, I'm trying to prove it myself. I obviously trust the formula since I have seen it in action but I want to know where those numbers come from. Any more info would be greatly appreciated!

Edit: I know I can probably prove this by induction but it still doesn't tell me where those constants came from. Thanks!
Click to expand...

Have you PM'd Mingot, or hit him up on IRC? He's usually keen to help, if you understand already for the most part.
 
Intro Intervals

I made a list of the different "intervals" that accept button presses. When I say skippable, I mean that you can move onto the next interval by a button press. Since it is widely accepted that button presses and time in intro sequence create the starting seed, I figured this was important to note. When I say cannot skip, that means, at least as far as i believe, that the game is not registering button presses at that time.

Interval 1: Cannot Skip
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
@2004 Pokemon
@1995-2004 Nintendo
@1995-2004 Creatures Inc.
@1995-2004 GAME FREAK inc.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Interval 2: Skippable (by A button or Start)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Animation: Star
Animation: Nidorino Vs. Gengar
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Interval 3: Forward (by A button or Start)*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Charizard / Venusaur Standing
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
*If left alone for a while, will return to Interval 1**
**If it returns to Interval 1, does the seeding reset?

Interval 4: Cannot Skip
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Charizard / Venusaur Cries
Screen Goes White
Pause
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Interval 5: Forward (by A), Backward (by B)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Continue Screen Pops Up
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Interval 6: Cannot Skip
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Screen Goes Black
Journal Pops Up
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hypothesis: Parts of the seed are generated independently from each other.
Facts: The seed is indeed determined by button presses, as verified by users chrish and mattj
Click to expand...
Suggestions:
For anyone with a gamecube turbo controller, ie mattj, maybe you can vary the "turbo rate" for one of the intervals, and when it moves onto the next interval, reset the turbo rate and continue as normal.

Perhaps the time during each interval generates a number, then the starting seed is a function of these numbers? One example I can think of is this:

we use a commonly found seed, for example c05 or something around there (this was a common location for mattj's spreads) call it seed A, change the speed on the first interval but keep the speed for everything else the same. Check the resulting seed (called seed B), lather, rinse repeat. Subtract the most common value of B from most common value of A and document these differences. Of course, we don't know if the exact function is a sum, product, or some other math operation, but it's a start.

If this yields some consistent results, maybe the time for other intervals will be changed, and we can see how drastically this changes the seed.
 
Sweet Breakdown there! :D

It's just a suspicion at the moment, but i seriously believe that small changes DON'T have a drastic effect on the seed. Reason being, if you look back at those seeds I got earlier (for example c05 and c04) the difference between the two is 1. It's likely (in my opinion) that there was like only one button press, or 1/60th of a second difference between the two, and it just moved the seed forward 1.
 
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