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Battle Maison Discussion & Records

ReptoAbysmal said:
Extremely well organized and easily browsed. Thank you for doing this.

What I would change for those who begin using that page for reference and had no prior knowledge is specifying the specialty teams or at least doing more to indicate what they use.
Click to expand...

There are over 15 different type-based rosters and about 10 other rosters based on other factors. I'm trying to find a way to represent these without being overly redundant and page-cluttery. Have any ideas?
 
Skewtr said:
There are over 15 different type-based rosters and about 10 other rosters based on other factors. I'm trying to find a way to represent these without being overly redundant and page-cluttery. Have any ideas?
Click to expand...
A short list of bullet points could work since not all of them require a much if any elaboration.

  • Hex Maniac Anastasia includes all third and fourth movesets of her respective types.
  • Chef I Forget includes all Ice types as well as all movesets containing Blizzard, including Meganium2's Petal Blizzard
  • Ace Trainer Bunny and Jai contain all four movesets of each pokemon with SDef or SpA above X threshhold, respectively
  • Unless otherwise noted, all class five and six trainers use the fourth movesets exclusively
I think something similar would work without taking up a very large amount of space or at least not requiring more charts. Then you have Mara.
 
I think the bulbapedia information is great. I always liked the Serebii trainer catalogue for the battle subway: http://www.serebii.net/blackwhite/subway/

I found it to be very accessible and very straightforward. I love the way you just select teh trainer and all of the possible sets just pop up in a very visual way. Something like this for the maison would be amazing. I don't have the capabilities to make this but I would hope that a good eal of the sets (and possibly trainers) would be transferrable to the maison
 
Okay, so looking into the data, I've concluded that the set of Pokemon an NPC can use is all determined based on certain criteria. Every Pokemon roster is selected based on certain criteria. Any Pokemon that fits a Trainer's criteria goes onto their roster.

First, look at what Moveset(s) the Trainer uses (1, 2, 3, and/or 4). Algorithm will only select Pokemon within these Movesets. Legendary Pokemon are excluded by default.
  • For type specialists, the criteria for example, Fire/Fighting/Rock, would be simply be "Fire-type OR Fighting-type OR Rock-type"
  • For generic Trainers, the criteria would be "Set A OR Set B"; or for Ace Trainers, "Set A OR Set B OR Lati@s(1,2)"
  • For trainers that specialize based on species like Scientists can be "Poison-type OR Electric-type OR Fossil", Fossil being the set {Aerodactyl, Cradily, Armaldo, Bastiodon, Rampardos, Archeops, Carracosta, Auroros, Tyrantrum}
Now for those special trainers like Intimidate Punk Guy and Rain Beauty - this is where it gets interesting:

First, we assume the Movesets used are all 1, 2, 3, and 4.
  • Hex Maniac Mara (Trick Room): "Move=Trick Room OR Item=Iron Ball"
  • Punk Guy Puck/Jensen (Intimidate): "Ability1/2=Intimidate" (does not count hidden ability, thus Scrafty is excluded)
  • Chef Roux/Frank (Sun): "Move=(Sunny Day OR SolarBeam) OR Ability1/2=(Chlorophyll OR Leaf Guard)"
  • Beauty Apollo/Lana (Rain): "Type=~Fire AND (Move=(Rain Dance OR Thunder OR Hurricane) OR Ability1/2=(Swift Swim OR Rain Dish)
  • Chef Andrei/Cobb (Hail): "Move=(Hail OR Blizzard OR Petal Blizzard) OR Ability1/2=(Snow Warning OR Snow Cloak OR Ice Body)"
  • Worker Rasmus (Sand): "Move=Sandstorm OR Ability1/2=(Sand Veil OR Sand Stream)"
  • Ace Trainers Jai and Bunny do not appear to have specific criteria for their teams. The roster is a arbitrarily-chosen set of 16 non-legendary Pokemon with high SpA/SpD plus Latios/Latias(1,2).
    • The 16 non-legendaries used by Jai happen to be the top 16 Pokemon on the whole NPC non-legendary roster. However, Clawitzer is tied with Zoroark, but the former is excluded from this list.
Here, we see the weather and Trick Room sets may include different Pokemon of different Movesets. This is because while all 4 sets are included, only certain Movesets satisfy the Move and Item criteria. This does not happen for type- and ability- specialist teams because a Pokemon's type and ability does not depend on the Moveset.


Let me know if this needs any clarification. I want to find a way of explaining this as clearly and comprehensively as possible.
 
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Apart from whittling the words down to be more concise and read less like computer script, that is excellent.

  • Hex Maniac Mara uses all Pokemon knowing the move Trick Room as well as any which hold an Iron Ball.
  • Punk Guy Jensen uses all movesets of Pokemon which may have Intimidate as an ability, excluding Hidden Abilities such as Scrafty.
Something like that, albeit perhaps polished further to your liking. To me, it's already easily understood, so I don't think there's a lot of straining involved.

Just make sure that Anastasia and Roller Skaters make it onto the list with their very unique quirks! No one wants to be mentally unprepared for an Archeops3!
 
Skewtr said:
Just a btw...

If anyone has data about the Normal Trainers, I can easily get that to Bulbapedia as well.
Click to expand...

I did look very briefly into the trainers of the Normal Maison a while back, but nowhere as in depth as with the Super Maison. Some of what is written below is a bit of guessing unfortunately, but it can't hurt to share I guess.

The Pokemon used by each trainer in the Normal Maison can be found here, just scroll down past the Super Maison trainers. Note that the trainer names are for XY, ORAS may have changed some of them, but I don't know which ones.

There doesn't seem to be any grouping of the Pokemon like there is with the Super trainers, aside from the "low tier"/"mid tier" split, although there are some specialty trainers:
  • Bight and Adze use "low tier" set 2 Steel/Rock/Fighting types
  • Rosanella, Blondine and Abricotine use "low tier" set 2 Normal/Grass/Fairy types
  • Phobos, Atlas, Janus, Io, Callisto and Tethys use "low tier" set 2 Poison/Dark types and Pokemon with non-hidden ability Intimidate
  • Gougere, Fricasse and Brunoise use "low tier" set 2 Grass/Fire/Water types
  • Conan, Toshi, Nika and Brodie use "mid tier" set 1 Fighting/Ground/Steel types, Magcargo, Quilladin and Frogadier
  • Logan and Dara use "mid tier" set 2 Grass/Ground types
  • Mario and Neve use "mid tier" set 2 Grass/Water types, Dragalge and Piloswine
As far as IVs are concerned, I'm not exactly sure how they work as I didn't look into that anywhere near as much as with the Super Maison, but I think the first battle has IVs set to 3 across the board. Most likely the pattern is something like:
  • Battles 1-5: all trainers use "low tier" set 1 (IV=3)
  • Battles 6-10: mix of trainers using "low tier" set 1 (IV=3) and trainers using "low tier" set 2 (IV=7)
  • Battles 11-15: mix of trainers using "low tier" set 2 (IV=7) and trainers using "mid tier" set 1 (IV=11)
  • Battles 16-19:mix of trainers using "mid tier" set 1 (IV=11) and trainers using "mid tier" set 2 (IV=15)
  • Battle 20: Chatelaine (IV=15)
Note the pattern that is continued with the Super Maison IVs: 3, 7, 11, 15, 19,...

It's possible that some of the battle 1-5 trainers get replaced by the set 2 trainers that start appearing at battle 6, similarly to what happens in the Super Maison, but I couldn't say which ones.

Other things:

With Mara and the weather teams, I think it might be better to replace the numbers under "set used" with a single column containing "see here for more information" or something similar, and refer them to the strategy groups section near the end that talks about those trainers and the fact that they use a mix of sets based on moves and ability rather than the number. I'm just concerned someone might look at the table and wrongly assume that those trainers can use all sets of any Pokemon in their pool, which might lead to them making unnecessary "safe" decisions in battle.

I think the expandable lists are a good addition. In fact, perhaps there could be some way to do something similar with Mara and the weather teams: have separate lists for them containing the Pokemon species they have along with which sets they use.

Thank you so much for doing this by the way. Perhaps having this information on another site in addition to Smogon will reduce the number of people complaining about the "cheating" Maison AI and Pokemon sets that don't exist. Fat chance but who knows?

As a random note, Artist Azure only uses Regirock 1 and 2, so that should probably be indicated like with the Ace Trainers and Latias/Latios.
 
Skewtr said:
Probably not. Speed tier data isn't raw enough to merit a place on the wiki.

Also, I'm trying to make a visual way of representing the Pokemon rosters used by the Trainers. Please have a look at the article and tell me how the expandable lists are.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_Battle_Maison_Trainers
Click to expand...

Excellent, I actually think the lists by type and characteristic may have been overdoing it...but doing so would satisfy the completetionists, so good show.
I find the Generic Group lists to be especially handy, giving me some wacky ideas...
 
atsync said:
I did look very briefly into the trainers of the Normal Maison a while back, but nowhere as in depth as with the Super Maison. Some of what is written below is a bit of guessing unfortunately, but it can't hurt to share I guess.

The Pokemon used by each trainer in the Normal Maison can be found here, just scroll down past the Super Maison trainers. Note that the trainer names are for XY, ORAS may have changed some of them, but I don't know which ones.

[...]

Thank you so much for doing this by the way. Perhaps having this information on another site in addition to Smogon will reduce the number of people complaining about the "cheating" Maison AI and Pokemon sets that don't exist. Fat chance but who knows?
Click to expand...

Yeah, if someone actually posted a full list of the Trainer classes, I can easily have that deduced.

As for the "cheating" AI, do people still say that? I know that was the case back when people didn't know Entei had Sacred Fire, or when they got paralyzed by a Static Zapdos. But I do notice that at higher levels, there are more Pokemon that hold BrightPowder or rely on other luck-based strategies. I once lost to a Chatelaine because my Sylveon's Hyper Voice missed the Bright Powder Latias 2 times in a row. Oh, and that Sheer Cold/Fissure Walrein gets pretty annoying too.

Smuckem said:
Excellent, I actually think the lists by type and characteristic may have been overdoing it...but doing so would satisfy the completetionists, so good show.
I find the Generic Group lists to be especially handy, giving me some wacky ideas...
Click to expand...

I wanted to find a way for people to easily see a list of Pokemon for every team and not have to go to that incredibly huge list. For a lot of type specialists like Scientists and Punk Guys/Girls that have overlap (Poison-type), it would be redundant to list all the Poison-type Pokemon in multiple lists. If someone wanted to see all the Pokemon for a Punk Girl, they could just open only the tables for Fire, Poison and Dark. I thought it might have been excessive at first too, so I kept those tables hidden by default.

UPDATE
I just added tables for the weather-based teams. Hopefully this format is visually-pleasing enough.
 
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That page just keeps getting better and better! My kneejerk reaction was to agree that we didn't really need the type listing or some of the characteristics, but I also agree with your reasoning and it's ultimately better that they're there.

Nothing will stop people from claiming the Maison cheats. Nothing. You can link to that page and show them a specific moveset and someone will only use it to reinforce their claim. "According to that table, it's not SUPPOSED to have that, but it did anyway." You can only demand they share nonexistent replays.
 
Finally got the ORAS Super Singles trophy after a few false starts. The information on this thread has been amazing in helping me navigate battles 30+, particularly the Battle Damage Calculator which took me through battles 35-50. Team is M-Manectric / Azumarill /Latios because I was originally trying to earn my Static Manectric an Ability Capsule, but then kept going since it had decent synergy with Azumarill and Latios. Plus they're all blue so it looks nice.

Manectric @ Manectite
Trait: Lightningrod
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spd
Nature: Timid
Moves: Protect / Volt Switch / Thunderbolt / Flamethrower

Latios @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spd
Nature: Timid
Moves: Grass Knot / Ice Beam / Psyshock / Draco Meteor

Azumarill @ Wide Lens
Trait: Huge Power
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Att / 72 Spd
Nature: Adamant
Moves: Waterfall / Aqua Jet / Play Rough / Superpower

I think I understand why M-Manetric isn't on the Singles Leaderboard. There is not that much opportunity to trigger Lightningrod in Super Singles and without a boost its attacks generally won't OHKO even when super effective (this is more true for non-STAB Flamethrower). Fortunately it's pretty easy to switch in Latios on a predicted ground-type move, and once Latios goes down Azumarill can clean up with Aqua Jet. Yup, not much strategy aside from full-out attack.
 
So I added a section on the article to list all the Trainers found in the normal challenges, though only by XY name. I added tier info based on what atsync told, while checking to make sure on my X (so far so good, though I've only run though this like twice). Please check to make sure I got the info right. I did a lot of guessing on the Trainer classes and tiers.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w...rainers#List_of_Normal_Battle_Maison_Trainers

EDIT
Found this nifty doc floating around the web.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PtAD-wPN1RqgzUzWX0SbJ5PeLogeLVvBDZ6DcN67N4g/edit#gid=0

Hopefully the data I added matches the Trainer classes here.

EDIT
And I found one for ORAS. Hopefully I can get the names translated eventually.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HAGjWaksB16cle4vWLBCOrNhXqJELzazyaIySX2PD5Y/edit#gid=0
 
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I'm undone today. A Happiness giving me awful sorrow instead, via evasion hax. 458 Triples streak.

YSQW-WWWW-WW3T-K32X

I blame Vulpix. Got one from Wonder Trade earlier, I SWEAR that condemned creature cursed me to lose, now I officially hate it more than Garchomp!!

I was too flustered and forgot enemies prefer one-shotting instead of status when available. Should have blocked the Megahorn on first turn and taunted it before it starts evasion hax. Now I know the frustrating power of evasion.

I hate you, you multi-tailed ghost of hatred. And you too, cheap evasion tactics.


I better try a Torneros, after Theorymon lend me his, for BS Triples and retire from streaks. I'm done.....
 
Just one last piece of information that a good handful of people in the Battle Maison community have been looking for:

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/User:TehPerson/List_of_Battle_Maison_Trainers'_quotes

This list has all quotes for every single name from both ORAS and XY. Has like over 400 entries. Maybe I should have split up Normal/Super, lol???

Edit
Lol looks like the mods didn't like the quotes page. Too big and too useless, they thought. Well, they let me keep it on my namespace, so good enough.
 
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Skewtr said:
So I added a section on the article to list all the Trainers found in the normal challenges, though only by XY name. I added tier info based on what atsync told, while checking to make sure on my X (so far so good, though I've only run though this like twice). Please check to make sure I got the info right. I did a lot of guessing on the Trainer classes and tiers.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w...rainers#List_of_Normal_Battle_Maison_Trainers
Click to expand...

Conan/Toshi/Nika/Brodie (Carver/Plummer/Jagger/Carden) also use Frogadier, so their entry should be "Group M: Fighting, Ground, Steel and Rock + Quilladin and Frogadier".

Other than that everything should be fine.
 
PsychicAcademic said:
I was too flustered and forgot enemies prefer one-shotting instead of status when available. Should have blocked the Megahorn on first turn and taunted it before it starts evasion hax. Now I know the frustrating power of evasion.

I hate you, you multi-tailed ghost of hatred. And you too, cheap evasion tactics.
Click to expand...

I tend to follow the general rule of thumb that the majority of evasion item holders are either not immediately threatening (Mismagius4, Mandibuzz4) or can be dangerous, but have to gamble to get to that point (Zapdos2, Walrein4, Gothitelle4), or are ultimately harmless (Feraligatr1, Dugtrio4), so I tend to treat them the same I treat stallmons; ignore them until their allies are out of commission, then gang up on them. You don't want to lose momentum you could have spent on other foes on the off-chance that those fuckers and their items screw you over. Of course, you can't do that for all of them (Contrary Serperior3, Lati@s1, Pinsir3), but that's why I make sure to note those 'mons in a seperate "Evasion Item Priority Targets" list.
 
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I would never leave Walrein4 alone if I can help it. Unblockable instant death (outside of Sturdy) roughly a third of the time is still much too often. While a lot of circumstances could result in my leaving a lead Walrein alone for a turn, they're still less likely. Sheer Cold is just an evil, evil move.

I also prefer killing Zapdos2 ASAP but that comes mostly from bad luck with it and eating far too many burns from Heat Wave. Fuck that thing.
 
Smuckem said:
I tend to follow the general rule of thumb that the majority of evasion item holders are either not immediately threatening (Mismagius4, Mandibuzz4) or can be dangerous, but have to gamble to get to that point (Zapdos2, Walrein4, Gothitelle4), or are ultimately harmless (Feraligatr1, Dugtrio4), so I tend to treat them the same I treat stallmons; ignore them until their allies are out of commission, then gang up on them. You don't want to lose momentum you could have spent on other foes on the off-chance that those fuckers and their items screw you over. Of course, you can't do that for all of them (Contrary Serperior3, Lati@s1, Pinsir3), but that's why I make sure to note those 'mons in a seperate "Evasion Item Priority Targets" list.
Click to expand...
I admit it was my mistake to overestimate Swagger(?) and didn't do the usual formation to build momentum in first turn. I could've taunted it at the start that way and destroy it quickly.....
 
Posting a completed streak of 78 wins in Omega Ruby Super Triples.

Roslindale Condores/Quetzales soar again (Formal team post HERE), but a major twist. Instead of the original team concept, this is a bastardized version without The Bench in place--The Starters as usual, with the sixth slot being filled by:

470.gif

SaliziRazor (Leafeon) (M) (Lvl.53) @ Razor Claw
Ability: Chlorophyll
IVs: 4/31/2/31/31/31
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Protect
- Knock Off
- X-Scissor
- Leaf Blade

He adds a little physical bulk to the team, covers the Grass side of things if Greninja needs to pay attention to other threats or gets switched and needs to use Mat Block more than once, and serves as a switch-in Earthquake absorber if Garchomp absolutely needs to throw one out and risks hurting another teammate in the process. This was originally meant to be an Imperfect Leafeon4, but working off of the standard NU set seemed to make more sense, plus having another Protect user on standby is always useful.

Make no mistake about it--this run was meant strictly to get Leafeon repped on the leaderboard and was going to stop at 100 battles no matter what. This works too, though.

The Loss: Battle #79, vs. Porter (Donphan/Bouffalant/Gengar/Dragonite/Snorlax/Ampharos) (Set 4)
Y76G-WWWW-WW3T-R7YL

Some notes:
- I seem to have found a groove when facing Scarfers and Aerodactyl--sack "Ben" after Tailwind, switch into Garchomp, Iron Head the 'dactyl immediately or Protect against the Scarfer. These don't scare me as much nowadays
- Adding a pure Grass-type to the mix has turned Weavile into a nuisance: can disrupt my setters with Fake Out, has the type advantage against half my team, Protect shenanigans, the possibility of Pickpocket...bastard.
- On a related note, I have gotten better with recognizing Protect-carrying sets, as I now almost instinctively gang up on non-Protect users when flanked by one or more Protect allies. It helps to take a little of the mental stress off of battles
- There is something great about exploiting Moxiemons with Earthquake & Bulldoze and fooling them into taking allies out with reckless abandon. Lvl. 1 FEAR users, I understand you a little better now

With this streak:
- Sylveon/Jolteon/Vaporeon/Leafeon are blatantly represented on the leaderboard
- Flareon is represented in Call_Me_Charlie's 1000-win streak
- Glaceon is represented in ReptoAbysmal's Trick Room super roster

That leaves Eevee/Espeon/Umbreon to still be ticked off. I leave the rest to you folks...

Me? Now I can get back to working on my grand Set 3 experiment--I'm working on breeding Imperfect Pyroar3 right now.
 
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Not too happy but I got a streak of 56 in Super Multi ORAS. I feel I can do better, I lost because I didn't know Focus Sash Counter Gliscor was a thing. My partner was Steven and I used

Weavile Life Orb
Jolly 252 atk 252 spe 6 spD
Ice Punch
Knock Off
Low Kick
Swords Dance

Garchomp @ Yache Berry
Jolly 252 atk 252 spe 6 HP
Outrage
Earthquake
Fire Fang
Swords Dance
 
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