I don't think anyone has ever had a glitch with their Battle Box before. That was the cause of my problem
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Battle Maison Discussion & Records
- Thread starter NoCheese
- Start date
I don't think anyone has ever had a glitch with their Battle Box before. That was the cause of my problem
Oh, was your Battle Box locked from an online competition? Because yeah you can't use it at all in the Maison if it's locked. I normally just choose from my Party since I always have my Battle Spot team in my Battle Box so I never even thought it could be that
What is the point of lying about a streak when it requires tangible proof to be credited? Singles isn't really the ideal format to cheese with one team and then switch to another just to lose and save a replay. You also won't have anything throughout the streak, which people have come to expect.
If you're cheesing your way through Singles with one team, only to lie and say you're using another team, then I would think the majority of posters here would kill to see what kind of team is able to cheese the mode so effectively in the first place, which makes one wonder why anyone would even bother.
But why anyone would bother lying/cheating in this thread at all is a mystery to me regardless lol
Apparently it's the ideal format to use an external device to back up your save and give yourself several mulligans when you lose. Probably because using Durant is straightforward enough in most cases that you can just say "Oh yeah, I guess I never encountered a lead with Fake Out, Protect, High Jump Kick, Explosion, Perish Song, Bright Powder, etc."
How would you suggest going about exposing such a thing aside from little slip-ups like the one you guys quoted? I would imagine save reloading rerolls the RNG, thereby presenting the opportunity to face a different trainer and different lead?
I think in his case the Durant team is the front, a fake team with an established track record for believability, since they definitely are not suited to quick battles or save reloading, for the amount of time wasted. I used one during my Subway days and some battles easily took ten minutes or more.
I think in his case the Durant team is the front, a fake team with an established track record for believability, since they definitely are not suited to quick battles or save reloading, for the amount of time wasted. I used one during my Subway days and some battles easily took ten minutes or more.
I guess that would be even faster. As for exposing anything, it's like a paternity test. All a paternity test says is that the likelihood of a random male sharing as many specific DNA markers with the child as the alleged father does is some tiny, tiny fraction of a percent. That, combined with the fact the person being tested is not being randomly selected off the street, is an overwhelming amount of proof that would require an extremely good explanation.
Addressing this generally, and not to any specific user:
The biggest threat to a thread like this is and always has been a collapse of trust. While we require basic levels of proof, it's certainly very possible (easy?) for a determined cheater to circumvent them. If this happens too many times, the leaderboard loses much of its meaning. At the end of the day, we depend on trust, and I strongly advise anyone considering trying to cheat-to-win to remember the harm eroding this trust can do. Moreover, don't think that a big streak alone is a magic ticket to respect here. It is not. Absent a detailed explanation of strategy, discussion of problem Pokemon and how they are handled, and participating in the back-and-forth discussion that makes this thread so helpful, a streak is just a number, and a potentially suspect one at that. See the whole JohnJohn fiasco if you doubt this.
I'm tempted to put some sort of discretionary clause into our leaderboard rules, suggesting that even if a streak meets our minimum proof requirements, it may be denied listing if there's a strong sense among regular thread participants that it is implausible absent further clarification of how certain obvious threats are handled. My worry is that once too much discretion enters the mix, it would be easy for newer thread participants to see an "old boys club" or the like at work, protecting each other's records more than the integrity of the leaderboard. Even though this would not be the case, I'd prefer to avoid any possible inference of such to the extent possible.
Thoughts?
The biggest threat to a thread like this is and always has been a collapse of trust. While we require basic levels of proof, it's certainly very possible (easy?) for a determined cheater to circumvent them. If this happens too many times, the leaderboard loses much of its meaning. At the end of the day, we depend on trust, and I strongly advise anyone considering trying to cheat-to-win to remember the harm eroding this trust can do. Moreover, don't think that a big streak alone is a magic ticket to respect here. It is not. Absent a detailed explanation of strategy, discussion of problem Pokemon and how they are handled, and participating in the back-and-forth discussion that makes this thread so helpful, a streak is just a number, and a potentially suspect one at that. See the whole JohnJohn fiasco if you doubt this.
I'm tempted to put some sort of discretionary clause into our leaderboard rules, suggesting that even if a streak meets our minimum proof requirements, it may be denied listing if there's a strong sense among regular thread participants that it is implausible absent further clarification of how certain obvious threats are handled. My worry is that once too much discretion enters the mix, it would be easy for newer thread participants to see an "old boys club" or the like at work, protecting each other's records more than the integrity of the leaderboard. Even though this would not be the case, I'd prefer to avoid any possible inference of such to the extent possible.
Thoughts?
Seeing questionable streaks sitting up on the leaderboard without even a note that they might not be legitimate (like JohnJohn's) has always bothered me a little, but when I start thinking about it I realize that there really isn't a better way to deal with it, considering our proof is limited to videos and pictures of the streak, which can obviously be faked. Implementing a discretionary clause would not only keep the leaderboard looking a little more professional (even now, a new player who says "Ooh, the third-place person's team looks cool, let's see how they used it" is going to be sorely disappointed when they click the link), but I like to think it would indeed discourage future cheaters, because it would show that if there's any suspicion of cheating, they're going to get called out on it and might not end up on the leaderboard at all, whereas current suspicious streaks still have the distinction of being on the leaderboard to begin with, so the dissenting voices might not matter to them as much.
(I hope that made sense. I've not been getting enough sleep lately.)
That being said, I totally understand where you're coming from on the viewpoint of the old boys club. I think it is important to, even if this discretionary clause is applied, still be helpful and patient with new posters, and not immediately spring to any conclusions. The early responses to Fluke's team show this; people pointed out threats and engaged in dialogue with Fluke about them, but it wasn't totally outside of the realm of possibility that Fluke had gotten lucky and made it to 500 on - well - a fluke. They didn't immediately jump down Fluke's throat with questions of legitimacy, even though some of the questions were kind of in that direction. It was only upon posting an 800+ record with no changes despite the long list of threats identified by previous posters, and the very telling quote about Protect/Fake Out, that GG Unit and myself started openly referring to it as a lie/cheat. The initial response to Fluke was mild enough, and such a response to new posters isn't going to outright discourage them - at least, I would hope not. Even with a discretionary clause in place, I think an attempt to continue being patient and not quick to jump to conclusions with new posters will help them see that it's not meant to discriminate against them. Just because they don't have the years of Maison experience and posts to show it behind them doesn't mean they aren't telling the truth, and as long as that's kept in mind I think everything else will resolve itself. (Hopefully.)
(I hope that made sense. I've not been getting enough sleep lately.)
That being said, I totally understand where you're coming from on the viewpoint of the old boys club. I think it is important to, even if this discretionary clause is applied, still be helpful and patient with new posters, and not immediately spring to any conclusions. The early responses to Fluke's team show this; people pointed out threats and engaged in dialogue with Fluke about them, but it wasn't totally outside of the realm of possibility that Fluke had gotten lucky and made it to 500 on - well - a fluke. They didn't immediately jump down Fluke's throat with questions of legitimacy, even though some of the questions were kind of in that direction. It was only upon posting an 800+ record with no changes despite the long list of threats identified by previous posters, and the very telling quote about Protect/Fake Out, that GG Unit and myself started openly referring to it as a lie/cheat. The initial response to Fluke was mild enough, and such a response to new posters isn't going to outright discourage them - at least, I would hope not. Even with a discretionary clause in place, I think an attempt to continue being patient and not quick to jump to conclusions with new posters will help them see that it's not meant to discriminate against them. Just because they don't have the years of Maison experience and posts to show it behind them doesn't mean they aren't telling the truth, and as long as that's kept in mind I think everything else will resolve itself. (Hopefully.)
I don't do online battles. I have a secondary party that I keep in there though. If the Battle Box is locked you would know by seeing a lock icon right? If there is an icon you're supposed to see then it didn't appear. So now you know my problem and that it was taken care of. I'm now officially dropping this
I'm curious as to why you want to drop the topic so badly. If other users want to know your issue, it can't hurt to tell them, can it?
It's fair to assume that the vast majority of people who look at this thread are trying to find some quick tips for building a successful team they can use to pick up the trophies or berries rather than to win thousands of battles in a row. It's a disservice to them to prominently list fake teams that, when used legitimately, will be hard-pressed to reach even those modest goals.
As far as being discretionary, it's safe to say that getting a huge streak on the first try without knowing the opponent movesets while using a team that is extremely dependent on the lead matchup is a huge, huge red flag.
If I were to look at other singles streaks on a case-by-case basis, I'm sure I could find plenty of 200+ streaks that would make me say "This person got lucky enough that I bet they could try 50 more times with the same team and never get a higher streak," but the teams are common enough for it to make complete sense that of the hundreds of people trying to build streaks with a generally similar team (as opposed to two particular teams that are carbon copies of others posted in the thread, right down to the listed EVs or lack thereof), one or two of them would last that long without getting haxed (and a few dozen on the other end of the luck spectrum are going to hate the Battle Maison enough to not post the streaks they achieved).
As far as being discretionary, it's safe to say that getting a huge streak on the first try without knowing the opponent movesets while using a team that is extremely dependent on the lead matchup is a huge, huge red flag.
If I were to look at other singles streaks on a case-by-case basis, I'm sure I could find plenty of 200+ streaks that would make me say "This person got lucky enough that I bet they could try 50 more times with the same team and never get a higher streak," but the teams are common enough for it to make complete sense that of the hundreds of people trying to build streaks with a generally similar team (as opposed to two particular teams that are carbon copies of others posted in the thread, right down to the listed EVs or lack thereof), one or two of them would last that long without getting haxed (and a few dozen on the other end of the luck spectrum are going to hate the Battle Maison enough to not post the streaks they achieved).
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I think turskain generally has the right idea in bolstering his credibility, not that it were ever doubted (but he has experimented a great deal with teams in multiple formats, especially triples.) Lots of replays, and very lengthy team discussion.
Dutch also handles it perfectly, not so much with the overwhelming number of videos but the explanations. I like to think I also did the same with my randomized teams; the ones from my initial post in this thread, at least, since they're the ones that amounted to something. Reflecting on them a moment, they kinda nicely illustrate the point GG Unit made about some teams succeeding much moreso on luck than foundation.
It's disheartening to think that it could be as easy as reloading a save and saving odd successful replays to fabricate a timeline, but when you consider that an extremely large streak SHOULD logically portray some element of growth/experience, not necessarily by way of moveset tweaking, but learning from mistakes, making better generalized plays and predictions and so on- phony streaks would flag this.
I don't have much to comment on problem leads in singles as they tie in to luck, but when it came to my Triples run, I found it amazing that I failed to encounter specific pokes as leads within 200 battles (Serperior4 came extremely close by #178, but was on several teams before then as backup) and extremely surprising that I failed to encounter specific pokes AT ALL on full teams of six (Tyranitar of any variety did not show his pseudo-legend face in just over 90 battles, what with Workers and Punks afoot. I couldn't believe it.) That said, one should absolutely expect to see a specific threat within 500 battles, and specific problem combinations much, much more commonly. Luck is a pitifully weak excuse by that point.
Experiences with certain things by similar teams can still vary greatly, though. VaporeonIce had no major issues with enemy Trick Room setters, while they were frequently (enough) a nightmare for me, and while he had a Fake Out lead, I recall him saying he didn't think it made THAT much a difference. In singles, however, Durant is Durant and I doubt things like slightly tweaked builds or hold item changes much on the enemy side of things.
But I digress. I think a tactful way of casting a shred of doubt on certain teams that don't pass muster but make the (illusion) of grandeur is justified, if it keeps the leaderboard honest. This topic has not seen a lot of finger-pointing and bickering yet, and I don't see that becoming a problem. While I don't like that even replays can be faked to a degree, if someone takes the effort to do them en masse, it does quell suspicions.
Dutch also handles it perfectly, not so much with the overwhelming number of videos but the explanations. I like to think I also did the same with my randomized teams; the ones from my initial post in this thread, at least, since they're the ones that amounted to something. Reflecting on them a moment, they kinda nicely illustrate the point GG Unit made about some teams succeeding much moreso on luck than foundation.
It's disheartening to think that it could be as easy as reloading a save and saving odd successful replays to fabricate a timeline, but when you consider that an extremely large streak SHOULD logically portray some element of growth/experience, not necessarily by way of moveset tweaking, but learning from mistakes, making better generalized plays and predictions and so on- phony streaks would flag this.
I don't have much to comment on problem leads in singles as they tie in to luck, but when it came to my Triples run, I found it amazing that I failed to encounter specific pokes as leads within 200 battles (Serperior4 came extremely close by #178, but was on several teams before then as backup) and extremely surprising that I failed to encounter specific pokes AT ALL on full teams of six (Tyranitar of any variety did not show his pseudo-legend face in just over 90 battles, what with Workers and Punks afoot. I couldn't believe it.) That said, one should absolutely expect to see a specific threat within 500 battles, and specific problem combinations much, much more commonly. Luck is a pitifully weak excuse by that point.
Experiences with certain things by similar teams can still vary greatly, though. VaporeonIce had no major issues with enemy Trick Room setters, while they were frequently (enough) a nightmare for me, and while he had a Fake Out lead, I recall him saying he didn't think it made THAT much a difference. In singles, however, Durant is Durant and I doubt things like slightly tweaked builds or hold item changes much on the enemy side of things.
But I digress. I think a tactful way of casting a shred of doubt on certain teams that don't pass muster but make the (illusion) of grandeur is justified, if it keeps the leaderboard honest. This topic has not seen a lot of finger-pointing and bickering yet, and I don't see that becoming a problem. While I don't like that even replays can be faked to a degree, if someone takes the effort to do them en masse, it does quell suspicions.
As far as the matter of cheating goes, it's indeed hard to prove. Fluke's write-up and team seems dubious to me in a lot of ways, not just in the Fake Out / Protect department.
Here's a brief list of what looks suspicious in my opinion:
+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 135-160 (68.1 - 80.8%)
+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Lapras: 115-140 (56 - 68.2%)
+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 155-185 (81.1 - 96.8%)
Regarding JohnJohn, I also believe that his streak is not legitimate. I'm less certain of it than with Fluke since Durant/Cloyster/Garchomp is a team with actual merits and it might be possible to reach 1400 wins with really good luck using it. Howewer, he didn't answer to comments, instead resorting to personal attacks - after which he vanished completely with his ongoing 1400 wins. Maybe he got put into solitary confinement in that prison he was supposedly in, heh.
Cheating accusations are indeed hard to account for - so far, there's been two highly suspicious big streaks posted. I think we'd need some kind of Tiering Council-type deal with multiple users to make those kinds of decisions fairly.
On a more positive note, I've been playing the Battle Factory in GenIV Frontier. So far with ~100 hours of in-game time spent in the Factory, I've made it to round 7 on four occasions and gotten win streaks of 42, 42, 43, and 45 in Level 50 before succumbing to the hellish working conditions.
I'm now at 846 and still going. My team is now definitive. It will be a matter of time until I will get unlucky. I don't have enough knowledge to know which trainers/mons will always Protect/Fake Out first turn. Let's pray to the RNGod. Hopefully I will make it to 1000+.Alright, for Super Singles I've recently figured out a strategy that works literally 99,99% of the time. The flaws in this strat are minimal. It already brought me up to 500 wins, and I'm definitely aiming for 1000+ with it. Here's the battle video:
EAZW-WWWW-WWXQ-7GZS
The Team
Durant @ Focus Sash/Choice Scarf
Ability: Truant
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
- Entrainment (other moves aren't necessarily needed)
- Protect
- X-Scissor
- Iron Head
Blaziken @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
Nature: Doesn't matter (mine's Jolly)
EVs: Don't matter (mine are 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe)
- Protect
- Substitute
- Hone Claws/Swords Dance
- Baton Pass
Cloyster @ Life Orb/Choice Band
Ability: Skill Link
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Protect
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Razor Shell
Strat explanatory
It's similar to some other strats I've seen on this thread. The strat basically revolves completely around Durant's Truant ability and using Entrainment to pass it onto the opponent. Just watch the battle video, it is pretty much self explanatory. If you're too lazy to download, or just don't have a DS/game, it works as follows:
Durant uses Entrainment on the opponent. Durant will pass its Truant ability onto the opponent, and that's basically Durant's one and only duty. This done, the battle is already decided in your favor in 99,99% of the cases. Your item can be Choice Scarf, just to be sure you outspeed the opponent. I personally am experienced with the good amount of hax that can occur (Quick Claw), hence I go for Focus Sash. This will allow me to get the Entrainment off.
After using Entrainment you immediately switch into Blaziken. Blaziken uses Protect whenever the opponent gets to attack, and uses stat upping moves whenever the opponent is loafing around every other turn. This will allow you to get a sub up, get +6 Attack, +6 Speed, and +6(?) Accuracy. The Speed Boost ability is mandatory here, as you get a free +1 Speed from it after every turn. Leftovers come in really nice, because if you start with putting up your sub, your HP recovers gradually during Protecting/setting up. I first started off with Swords Dance in this set, but I later figured Hone Claws is way safer, as it allows you to let Cloyster use its Rock Blasts/Razor Shells without missing when you Baton Pass into it. Only downside to it is that it significantly stretches out the battle.
Here Cloyster comes in as a motherfucking beast on steroids. You send him out when your opponent is about to loaf around. This Life Orbed/Choice Banded kid now has +6 Attack, +6 Speed, and +6 Accuracy. The reasoning behind Adamant over Jolly is that you're +6 Speed anyways, so you naturally outspeed any mon. You're basically set to sweep. It can basically OHKO anything except for a few encounters. The reason I'm opting to go for Choice Band is that nothing is immune to Ice. A +6 Choice Banded Adamant Cloyster will OHKO almost anything. And if it doesn't, you have the sub that protects you as well. I'm still hesitating between Life Orb and Choice Band though. I think I'm gonna go with Life Orb, since Choice Band locks you into one move. And since the Battle Maison is the temple of hax, I'd rather avoid 3 critting priority moves by being able to use Protect.
Potential survivors (calcs)
These are calculated with the opponent having a Defense upping nature.
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 130-155 (68 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klinklang: 195-230 (116.7 - 137.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Magnezone: 195-230 (110.1 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 190-220 (96.4 - 111.6%) -- approx. 68.8% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 190-225 (104.3 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Carracosta: 195-235 (107.7 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 160-188 (95.8 - 112.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 220-260 (106.2 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 160-188 (85.5 - 100.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 177-211 (89.3 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Metagross: 177-211 (94.6 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 192-227 (110.3 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Note that some of these could've been possible 2HKO's instead of OHKO's if Cloyster had a Jolly nature.
Flaws
Priority
As I mentioned earlier, opponents with priority moves might by a slight chance throw Cloyster off. Think Prankster T-Wave. Hasn't happened to me yet though.
Quick Claw
If you manage to run into an opponent with Quick Claw you cannot OHKO and that can do serious damage to Cloyster, and the Quick Claw triggers twice in a row, you might lose. The chances of this happening are almost zero, but you know how they roll in the Battle Maison (right, Walrein?)
Protect/Flinches
If you manage to run into a Protect user on turn 1, and you use Entrainment, you're pretty much screwed as you're now loafing around yourself next turn. Not much you can do, unless you have the luck your opponent cannot kill you. Same goes for moves like Fake Out. You might want to opt running Protect on Durant to predict the Fake Out, but then you have to be lucky to outspeed your opponent and not get 2HKO'd. The flinch issue also goes for Cloyster. Perhaps you run into some Fake Out + priority move users that are super effective and crit or whatever. Anything can happen in the Battle Maison.
Moves that ignore sub
Combined with hax such as critical hits, this might be devastating.
Ganlon Berry
Ganlon Berry holders take less damage from physical attacks. The rest is self explanatory.
Feel free to leave any feedback and suggestions. They will be greatly appreciated. I'll post an update when I reach 1000+ or lose in the process.
Here's a brief list of what looks suspicious in my opinion:
- Durant @ Focus Sash/Choice Scarf - there are legitimate alternate item choices, and then there's Focus Sash Durant which could be interrupted by anything faster whose moves can have a secondary effect, such as Starmie4 (Razor Fang) flinching, any fast Electric-type inflicting Paralysis and causing it to get FP'd, or get confused by Hurrrnadus's Hurricane. I don't see any reason to run Sash on Durant.
- Hone Claws/Swords Dance on Blaziken - this slash makes more sense than Durant's item, but is still very dubious. Since Rock Blast has 90% accuracy and is necessary against Pokémon like Heatran and Thick Fat Walrein and BrightPowder/Lax Incense are also a concern, I think Hone Claws's accuracy boost would be mandatory.
- Life Orb/Choice Band on Cloyster - I could perhaps not flame Life Orb right off, but Choice Band is a completely ludicrous slash. Locking into Icicle Spear is going to miss a lot of KOs on Ice-resistant targets. Some calcs:
+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 135-160 (68.1 - 80.8%)
+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Lapras: 115-140 (56 - 68.2%)
+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 155-185 (81.1 - 96.8%)
- The calcs - these calcs have no connection to the Battle Maison for the most part. The opponents all have 252/252+ spreads - which the majority of them do not run in the Battle Maison. Aegislash does not appear in the Maison at all. The Choice Band which is slashed as an option is conveniently omitted from the calcs (see above).
- Sub-piercing moves - these are moves used by Pokémon with the ability Infiltrator, and sound-based moves. All of the Pokémon that have either are outsped and OHKO'd by a boosted Cloyster; or are Spiritomb4 whose Sucker Punch could hit Cloyster through Substitute, against which Cloyster has 200 base Defense. Unlike Ganlon Berry, this one has basis in actual threats such as Infiltrator Chandelure for other Durant sweepers, but it is completely irrelevant for Cloyster. There's also Roar/Whirlwind/Perish Song which go through Protect, but the post specifically mentioned Substitute and crits, not any of these.
- Ganlon Berry - it is held by Sylveon2, which is used by Furisode Girls. It doesn't resist Ice. It gets KO'd. There is no chance this item could ever present a threat, unless you put it on your own Pokémon by accident over something that's actually useful.
Regarding JohnJohn, I also believe that his streak is not legitimate. I'm less certain of it than with Fluke since Durant/Cloyster/Garchomp is a team with actual merits and it might be possible to reach 1400 wins with really good luck using it. Howewer, he didn't answer to comments, instead resorting to personal attacks - after which he vanished completely with his ongoing 1400 wins. Maybe he got put into solitary confinement in that prison he was supposedly in, heh.
Cheating accusations are indeed hard to account for - so far, there's been two highly suspicious big streaks posted. I think we'd need some kind of Tiering Council-type deal with multiple users to make those kinds of decisions fairly.
On a more positive note, I've been playing the Battle Factory in GenIV Frontier. So far with ~100 hours of in-game time spent in the Factory, I've made it to round 7 on four occasions and gotten win streaks of 42, 42, 43, and 45 in Level 50 before succumbing to the hellish working conditions.
I'm all for acknowledging that a higher standard of proof may be necessary for some streaks that seem questionable, but I wonder if it might be counterproductive. I remember Johnjohn posting a replay of some threat we all acknowledged where he won, but he played like crap and lucked his way to a win. If you cheat in the way GG Unit is suggesting, you'll have some of those occasions to post ("phew, good thing I managed to pull it off!"), while negating the ones where you actually lose. We'll say "I don't believe you" and they'll say "But see? I have the replays!" and it won't actually get anywhere. The only way to actually negate this would be to have a higher standard of proof for all streaks (e.g. posting tough or interesting battles for every streak), but that wouldn't be super fair, since we don't cast a ton of doubt on every streak that only has one post or one battle video.
I have a thought that I have majorly mixed feelings about (for potentially obvious reasons):
Separate out the Durant list from the "everything else" list again.
It seems like, for whatever reason, people who never post here are motivated to come in and say "I got this huge-ass streak with Durant." Maybe it's the lore of Durant: the idea that Durant effortlessly breaks the Maison, while everything else falls victim to "teh hax." Maybe people are just really frustrated with the Maison, and want to paint themselves as having finally "struck back." Maybe it's simply the apparent credibility (to the uninformed) of a 1000+ win streak that uses Durant.
It seems like creativity has died down a lot lately. Maybe it's just that people aren't very interested in the Maison now, but it seems like every post about Singles has been a Durant streak (other than my own Mega Lopunny effort). It seems like, other than some theorymon by Jumpman and a few others, people haven't even explored Mega Fucking Salamence, a Pokemon with a ton of strengths, except by pairing it with Durant. Maybe it would be that way anyway, but I can't help but think the inclusion of Durant as "just another team" makes people think that's the go-to strategy they should try.
As I mentioned, I have really mixed feelings about this. I obviously have my own experiences with Durant, and have learned that there's a TON of theorymon and planning that you can put in a Durant team to optimize it. Some of that theorymon is even cool and interesting (I mean, Aerial Ace to beat Breloom 4? Not to toot my own horn too much, but that's pretty freaking interesting). But beyond my own experiences, GG Unit has brought a lot to this thread with his Durant teams, and we owe a lot of our knowledge of other Durant teams being faked to the insane amount of time and effort he's put into the strategy. But beyond that, I've found it really rewarding to read Altissimo 's experiences with learning the strategy. I don't want to act like Entrainment Durant is a "lesser" strategy that we should look down upon. I also don't want to suggest that Durant by itself is categorically better than everything non-Durant, because as Jumpman16 has shown, goodstuffs teams can do just as well as the most reliable Durant team (or almost as well; I don't think we have the data to know), and (I believe) significantly better than every other Durant team. But there does seem to be an incentive to reduce creativity and resort to Durant. I had expected that would die down when I basically "broke the strategy," but to my surprise, it seemed to increase.
I disagree with Jumpman's (former) argument (don't know if he still believes it now) that Durant deserves to be separated because it's categorically broken in a way other things aren't. I also disagree with the idea that there's nothing interesting you can do with Durant, and Durant is a simple and easy strategy; I think GG Unit has pretty thoroughly disproven that. Durant itself isn't boring, but I've found it doesn't always contribute positively to the thread.
Maybe I'm completely off-base here; maybe I'm misattributing a general lull in Singles activity to Durant. But it does seem like the appeal of climbing the leaderboards with Durant plays some role in the likely faked streaks we've seen, which is disappointing.
Edit: turskain, you can go back through my old posts for my experiences in the HeartGold Factory. I lost to the Factory Head/Brain/whatever he's called, battle #49, because my +4 Dragon Dance Tyranitar missed a Bright Powder/Lax Incense Glalie with Crunch. TWICE. I think I had two other streaks in the 45-48 range too. That place is a nightmare; I applaud your efforts.
I have a thought that I have majorly mixed feelings about (for potentially obvious reasons):
Separate out the Durant list from the "everything else" list again.
It seems like, for whatever reason, people who never post here are motivated to come in and say "I got this huge-ass streak with Durant." Maybe it's the lore of Durant: the idea that Durant effortlessly breaks the Maison, while everything else falls victim to "teh hax." Maybe people are just really frustrated with the Maison, and want to paint themselves as having finally "struck back." Maybe it's simply the apparent credibility (to the uninformed) of a 1000+ win streak that uses Durant.
It seems like creativity has died down a lot lately. Maybe it's just that people aren't very interested in the Maison now, but it seems like every post about Singles has been a Durant streak (other than my own Mega Lopunny effort). It seems like, other than some theorymon by Jumpman and a few others, people haven't even explored Mega Fucking Salamence, a Pokemon with a ton of strengths, except by pairing it with Durant. Maybe it would be that way anyway, but I can't help but think the inclusion of Durant as "just another team" makes people think that's the go-to strategy they should try.
As I mentioned, I have really mixed feelings about this. I obviously have my own experiences with Durant, and have learned that there's a TON of theorymon and planning that you can put in a Durant team to optimize it. Some of that theorymon is even cool and interesting (I mean, Aerial Ace to beat Breloom 4? Not to toot my own horn too much, but that's pretty freaking interesting). But beyond my own experiences, GG Unit has brought a lot to this thread with his Durant teams, and we owe a lot of our knowledge of other Durant teams being faked to the insane amount of time and effort he's put into the strategy. But beyond that, I've found it really rewarding to read Altissimo 's experiences with learning the strategy. I don't want to act like Entrainment Durant is a "lesser" strategy that we should look down upon. I also don't want to suggest that Durant by itself is categorically better than everything non-Durant, because as Jumpman16 has shown, goodstuffs teams can do just as well as the most reliable Durant team (or almost as well; I don't think we have the data to know), and (I believe) significantly better than every other Durant team. But there does seem to be an incentive to reduce creativity and resort to Durant. I had expected that would die down when I basically "broke the strategy," but to my surprise, it seemed to increase.
I disagree with Jumpman's (former) argument (don't know if he still believes it now) that Durant deserves to be separated because it's categorically broken in a way other things aren't. I also disagree with the idea that there's nothing interesting you can do with Durant, and Durant is a simple and easy strategy; I think GG Unit has pretty thoroughly disproven that. Durant itself isn't boring, but I've found it doesn't always contribute positively to the thread.
Maybe I'm completely off-base here; maybe I'm misattributing a general lull in Singles activity to Durant. But it does seem like the appeal of climbing the leaderboards with Durant plays some role in the likely faked streaks we've seen, which is disappointing.
Edit: turskain, you can go back through my old posts for my experiences in the HeartGold Factory. I lost to the Factory Head/Brain/whatever he's called, battle #49, because my +4 Dragon Dance Tyranitar missed a Bright Powder/Lax Incense Glalie with Crunch. TWICE. I think I had two other streaks in the 45-48 range too. That place is a nightmare; I applaud your efforts.
I would attribute it to the Battle Maison being out for over a year and half; if someone was going to come up with something radical, they probably would have done it by now. Singles is always going to be the least creative because you're facing the same opponents but have fewer team slots to cover all of them (and you can do the least with your "information advantage" over the AI because you only see 1/3rd of the team at a time rather than 1/2 in Doubles and Triples in addition to the obvious KO bait and Mat Block stuff that allows you to more selectively eliminate threats).
As for why both times it was Durant, I think there's an interesting parallel in the kind of first-order thinking it requires to come up with "Durant lead + Protect = good" but not foresee why it's not a guaranteed win every time and to think of "Battle Maison + save state = super long win streak" but not foresee how it's not going to fool people who pay close enough attention.
I also don't feel like it's fair to pin the lack of Mega Salamence in singles on a lack of creativity; it was discussed more in this thread than any individual Pokemon in any format (even though it is empirically more effective as a Hyper Voice user in doubles/triples than as a singles sweeper) explicitly because people were thirsty to try something new by the time ORAS came out, and it was found to be an inferior version of Dragonite. It's very similar to your Mega Lopunny streak where someone who knows what they're doing could definitely surround it with some standard teammate archetypes and get a 200+ streak with it, but the teammates and the battler's knowledge would be pulling considerably more of the weight than would be the case if you were to use the same team with MegaKhan or Dragonite in the ORAS mega's place.
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With regards to "illegitimate streaks," speaking as someone whose only streak actually on the leaderboard is less than 200 wins, I really don't give a damn if someone wants to literally hack their way onto the leaderboard. The numbers next to someone's name in that post don't mean anything to me unless they have something interesting to say about it. I like reading posts by GG Unit, VaporeonIce, and ReptoAbysmal (among others) because they are actually engaged in the topic for its own sake, so they have much to say about it. I like reading warstories like Mega Lopunny because it's new and interesting. I don't care about whatever the latest dude to pop into the thread with a Durant/Cloyster/whatever team has to say unless he can explain why that third party member makes his team function so differently from the Durant teams already discussed at great length in this thread.
Honestly, I enjoy it more when someone talks about trying to make a flawed team work than I am in seeing big numbers from someone who's fine-tuned an existing strategy just a hair better. So, really, I don't care that much whether these guys get a spot on the leaderboard without any vetting.
Having said all that, I feel like we should make it clear that anyone who just comes out of the blue with an existing streak who can't explain why his team performs as well as it does, or why it's interesting, or how he/she deals with the maison in a clever way has not earned any bragging rights and will not really be given any respect by people already participating in the thread. Either bring your own voice to the discussion, or keep it to yourself.
Honestly, I enjoy it more when someone talks about trying to make a flawed team work than I am in seeing big numbers from someone who's fine-tuned an existing strategy just a hair better. So, really, I don't care that much whether these guys get a spot on the leaderboard without any vetting.
Having said all that, I feel like we should make it clear that anyone who just comes out of the blue with an existing streak who can't explain why his team performs as well as it does, or why it's interesting, or how he/she deals with the maison in a clever way has not earned any bragging rights and will not really be given any respect by people already participating in the thread. Either bring your own voice to the discussion, or keep it to yourself.
My issue was a glitch my Battle Box had. I thought it was the game that was having a glitch problem but no (which is a relief).
I've told everyone but the information I was hoping to get wasn't given so I went to a different forum and asked about this and got my answer and what to do to fix the glitch.
It's done and doesn't need to be carried on anymore. This is my last time posting here on this thread/Smogon.
archival edit: i've since gotten additional 617 and 606 streaks with this team and made some final tweaks, primarily an optimisation to gastrodon's speed stat. for discussion on these things as well as some additional warstories and musings see the second half of this post: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/battle-maison-discussion-records.3492706/post-7022387
Full health Gastrodon facing off against Luxray one-on-one. Should be easy, right? Unless it's this thing:
311 | Luxray1 | Lonely | Magnet | Wild Charge | Crunch | Captivate | Swagger | Atk/SpD
and the RNG gods aren't on your side. Immediate Swagger, can't get a single attack off between two Captivates and two Crunches, and that's all she wrote. Posting a streak of 607 wins in ORAS Super Doubles.
#608: JHRG-WWWW-WW22-2NBF
No picture this time because it obviously doesn't beat my best record - however, it does beat my best record with this team more than two times over, and we do want to have the leaderboard reflect this team's capabilities as accurately as possible, right? Right. The team is Weavile / Mega Gardevoir / Gastrodon / Scizor, and this is that 'second attempt' I already announced right after my first loss with them.
Obviously I never should have let the battle come down to that in the first place. Jensen leads with unknown Gyarados and Staraptor. Since both can OHKO both Weavile and Gardevoir multiple times over, I figure Fake Out is pointless and click Ice Punch Staraptor + Hyper Voice – the Scarf set is basically guaranteed to target Weavile anyway. It is the Scarf set, using Close Combat to knock Weavile down to its Sash, Weavile OHKOes in return, Gardevoir deals ~85% damage to Gyarados, and Gyarados uses Bulldoze to KO Weavile and deal damage to Gardevoir. I send out Scizor because Bullet Punch is cool and can KO a 15% Gyarados, out comes Arcanine. I click Protect on Scizor to preserve it one more turn and attack Arcanine with Psyshock, not anticipating anything Gyarados might do and probably valuing Scizor more than a -1 Spe Gardevoir – Arcanine even opts for Sunny Day over attacking Scizor, and Gyarados KOes Gardevoir with Giga Impact. I send out Gastrodon, KO Gyarados with Bullet Punch, Arcanine fortunately opts for KOing Scizor over Sunnybeaming the shit out of Gastrodon and sealing the loss even sooner, Gastrodon KOes Arcanine, and out comes Luxray, which will proceed to bs its way through Gastrodon. Switching out Gardevoir for Gastrodon on that turn would have prevented Gastro vs Luxray from occurring – Gastro doesn't like taking that Giga Impact at all, but it would have preserved Gardevoir (unless 'lol crit' and my only solid Fire-type check dies or Arcanine prefers finishing off Gastro over KOing Scizor, so not sure if that would have been a right play). Straight Bullet Punch and sacking Scizor (assuming Arcanine would attack) would have caused Gardevoir + Gastrodon to face off against Arcanine + Luxray – which is a guaranteed win, unless... Swagger bullshit rofl. I'm not at all confident either skipping Fake Out was the right play, but neutering Staraptor as Gyarados3 DDs / Gyarados1 TWaves and neutering Gyarados as (Reckless) Staraptor OHKOes Gardevoir before it can move aren't too great either, so urrrgh.. I wanted to lose heroically against a Scizor + Escavalier lead, I already lost my 283 streak to idiocy + bullshit, that gets old really fast. I obviously would have preferred a less infuriating loss, although I do admit I shouldn't have let it get this far in the first place.
The big, 300+ wins, improvement was putting Weavile in the lead position so as not to inadvertently select the forfeit button while Mega Evolving Gardevoir (don't judge, I almost lost my singles streak to that at some point, why the hell would you put those two buttons at the exact same place) and giving it a proper nickname... no really, apart from a couple highly subconscious feel things those things are of course completely inconsequential, and the team hasn't changed at all otherwise. What really made the difference was actually committing to this streak rather than playing it alongside other formats (which does work wonders for your focus, obviously) and waiting way longer before blacking out I guess.
I called this the 'second run' with this team, but it's really not, it's the sixth iirc. I've been playing this team on and off after losing in triples, and I actually already beat 283 a few streaks ago, but I lost that one at like 307 so that would've been waay to inconsequential to post about; otherwise I lost a couple of streaks in the 100s, mostly because of somewhat sloppy play in somewhat awkward matchups and just a general lack of focus/form. The 307 streak was mainly due to luck anyway (I distinctly remember a battle that I only won because of Dragonite missing Dragon Rush in a last-mon situation against Gastrodon; actually hilarious was Gastrodon + Scizor being up against an unknown Delphox set + a Torterra with Seed Bomb. I knew I was pretty much fucked, but I clicked Earth Power on Delphox + Bug Bite on Torterra anyway... as I saw Delphox charge for Solar Beam. I've definitely had some lucky breaks on this streak, but no similar for all intents and purposes lost battles once every 100 battles). After finally finally finally hitting 325 I guess that strange phenomenon called 'form' kicked back in. Even now though I'm still figuring out new optimal plays in specific scenarios, and that's probably just because this team is pretty hard to use when compared to my other teams (while it does have a standard opening in Fake Out + Hyper Voice, that one is much more easily foiled than e.g. Greninziken's and Clockwork Angels' standard plays and obviously also involves the decision which target to Fake Out - and with Weavile + Gardevoir having more flaws than my other lead pairing/trios yet Gastrodon + Scizor also being able to switch in on a pretty huge amount of stuff, the amount of situations where I have to pick between multiple 'workable but certainly not optimal' plays is pretty high.) which is probably also the reason why I lost at 'only' 607 (as opposed to 1028) due to choking in a non-straightforward situation. It sort of reminds me of how turskain mentioned at some point that Suizorus was distinctly harder to play properly than Dragonite/Aegislash/Greninja and therefore was way more prone to losing because of something like this and way less grind-friendly; I took considerably more time for this streak than for the Greninziken one, but apparently it still was too much to keep my brain functioning properly at all times. Anyway, I'm pretty much done with figuring out which one of these teams is 'better' when played to their full potential because I'm pretty sure this team still has a lot of untapped potential that I haven't figured out yet, but if anyone ever stumbles upon my two doubles teams and just wants the Starf Berry or w/e, Greninziken is the easier pick, lol. (And if you don't have a Thundurus, Zapdos (252/252 Timid Specs, TBolt/Heat Wave/HP Ice/Volt Switch) should be good enough too.)
I would have liked to get further and lose in a less infuriating manner, but I'm not sure how reasonable a goal that would be for a hypothetical new streak because 'hard to play properly' and stuff. Moreover, my main goal was to show that this team is a lot better than a 283 streak would suggest, and for that I think 607 is sufficient. I may try again at a later point just because it's fun, but w/e. In any case, supposedly 500 in doubles is respectable, so I can't be unhappy hitting it twice with two pretty different teams.
Good luck, everyone!
(fwiw I'll also finally finally be editing a near-comprehensive what-to-do-against-lead-X list into my singles streak writeup tomorrow, it's almost done but it's late here now) k did this
Full health Gastrodon facing off against Luxray one-on-one. Should be easy, right? Unless it's this thing:
311 | Luxray1 | Lonely | Magnet | Wild Charge | Crunch | Captivate | Swagger | Atk/SpD
and the RNG gods aren't on your side. Immediate Swagger, can't get a single attack off between two Captivates and two Crunches, and that's all she wrote. Posting a streak of 607 wins in ORAS Super Doubles.
#608: JHRG-WWWW-WW22-2NBF
#351: 24BG-WWWW-WW22-3UX8
Four generally unpleasant foes in Volcarona + Muk + Darmanitan + Gengar (with Weavile dead); this replay basically shows why Gastrodon is great. Additionally:
0 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 150-176 (103.4 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Volcarona Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 116-140 (80 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
yet Volc opens with Heat Wave and even sets up QD on the second turn against a 5 HP Weavile... I also distinctly remember a battle from my 283 streak where Trevenant4 set up TR against my 1 HP Weavile, in spite of Focus Blast OHKOing even a full health Weavile multiple times over, so yeah there's definitely a LOT more to it than 'they go after guaranteed OHKOs.'
#371: K85W-WWWW-WW22-3UWB
A Metagross + Scizor lead, pretty much the next worst thing after Escavalier + Scizor. Houndoom (when you have Scizor + Gastro out) and Walrein as backups isn't too great either.
Four generally unpleasant foes in Volcarona + Muk + Darmanitan + Gengar (with Weavile dead); this replay basically shows why Gastrodon is great. Additionally:
0 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 150-176 (103.4 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Volcarona Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 116-140 (80 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
yet Volc opens with Heat Wave and even sets up QD on the second turn against a 5 HP Weavile... I also distinctly remember a battle from my 283 streak where Trevenant4 set up TR against my 1 HP Weavile, in spite of Focus Blast OHKOing even a full health Weavile multiple times over, so yeah there's definitely a LOT more to it than 'they go after guaranteed OHKOs.'
#371: K85W-WWWW-WW22-3UWB
A Metagross + Scizor lead, pretty much the next worst thing after Escavalier + Scizor. Houndoom (when you have Scizor + Gastro out) and Walrein as backups isn't too great either.
No picture this time because it obviously doesn't beat my best record - however, it does beat my best record with this team more than two times over, and we do want to have the leaderboard reflect this team's capabilities as accurately as possible, right? Right. The team is Weavile / Mega Gardevoir / Gastrodon / Scizor, and this is that 'second attempt' I already announced right after my first loss with them.
Obviously I never should have let the battle come down to that in the first place. Jensen leads with unknown Gyarados and Staraptor. Since both can OHKO both Weavile and Gardevoir multiple times over, I figure Fake Out is pointless and click Ice Punch Staraptor + Hyper Voice – the Scarf set is basically guaranteed to target Weavile anyway. It is the Scarf set, using Close Combat to knock Weavile down to its Sash, Weavile OHKOes in return, Gardevoir deals ~85% damage to Gyarados, and Gyarados uses Bulldoze to KO Weavile and deal damage to Gardevoir. I send out Scizor because Bullet Punch is cool and can KO a 15% Gyarados, out comes Arcanine. I click Protect on Scizor to preserve it one more turn and attack Arcanine with Psyshock, not anticipating anything Gyarados might do and probably valuing Scizor more than a -1 Spe Gardevoir – Arcanine even opts for Sunny Day over attacking Scizor, and Gyarados KOes Gardevoir with Giga Impact. I send out Gastrodon, KO Gyarados with Bullet Punch, Arcanine fortunately opts for KOing Scizor over Sunnybeaming the shit out of Gastrodon and sealing the loss even sooner, Gastrodon KOes Arcanine, and out comes Luxray, which will proceed to bs its way through Gastrodon. Switching out Gardevoir for Gastrodon on that turn would have prevented Gastro vs Luxray from occurring – Gastro doesn't like taking that Giga Impact at all, but it would have preserved Gardevoir (unless 'lol crit' and my only solid Fire-type check dies or Arcanine prefers finishing off Gastro over KOing Scizor, so not sure if that would have been a right play). Straight Bullet Punch and sacking Scizor (assuming Arcanine would attack) would have caused Gardevoir + Gastrodon to face off against Arcanine + Luxray – which is a guaranteed win, unless... Swagger bullshit rofl. I'm not at all confident either skipping Fake Out was the right play, but neutering Staraptor as Gyarados3 DDs / Gyarados1 TWaves and neutering Gyarados as (Reckless) Staraptor OHKOes Gardevoir before it can move aren't too great either, so urrrgh.. I wanted to lose heroically against a Scizor + Escavalier lead, I already lost my 283 streak to idiocy + bullshit, that gets old really fast. I obviously would have preferred a less infuriating loss, although I do admit I shouldn't have let it get this far in the first place.
The big, 300+ wins, improvement was putting Weavile in the lead position so as not to inadvertently select the forfeit button while Mega Evolving Gardevoir (don't judge, I almost lost my singles streak to that at some point, why the hell would you put those two buttons at the exact same place) and giving it a proper nickname... no really, apart from a couple highly subconscious feel things those things are of course completely inconsequential, and the team hasn't changed at all otherwise. What really made the difference was actually committing to this streak rather than playing it alongside other formats (which does work wonders for your focus, obviously) and waiting way longer before blacking out I guess.
This team essentially originated from playing AI multi: I wanted to use Mega Gardevoir because 'muh tutor moves', and when considering what weaknesses a partner would have to cover - Poison, Steel, Fire, Trick Room - I figured Gastrodon would make an excellent backup, while also being able to absorb stray Water-type moves for Steven's Aerodactyl. This tandem did what it was supposed to do, but it still struggled in multi because Gastrodon required support in the removal of Grass-types, which you naturally can't count on an AI partner to provide. I then set out to incorporate them on a Doubles team. I figured Mega Gardevoir would best be paired with Fake Out support, and the Fake Out user that I figured would pair best with it was Weavile. Specifically, Weavile beats the Ghost-types that trouble Mega Gardevoir, and due to its frailty and horrendous defensive typing it's likely to draw in a lot of attacks, especially after getting knocked down to its Sash, and thus buy MGarde a bunch of free turns with Protect to fire off even more Hyper Voices. Additionally, its STAB Knock Off is pretty much the best move any Fake Out user could ask for, as it covers the Ghost-types that are immune to Fake Out (and OHKOes Inner Focus Alakazam lol) and in tandem with Fake Out is brutally efficient at preventing Trick Room; lastly, Weavile is faster than all the Maison's Fake Out users (except opposing Weavile obviously), preventing their Fake Out if necessary, and its Ice typing allows it not to give a fuck about hail breaking its Sash. turskain successfully pairing up Mega Garde with Weavile in triples didn't exactly dampen my spirits either of course. As for the fourth mon, Scizor was an easy addition just because it's so damn good and provided bulk, power, priority, and another switch-in to Poison- and Steel-types, while also having excellent switch synergy with Gastrodon.
Catweazle (Weavile) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
Nature: Jolly
IVs: 31/31/31/27/31/31
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
-Fake Out
-Knock Off
-Ice Punch
-Protect
Standard moves are standard; there are a couple other moves Weavile would like to run such as Ice Shard and Low Kick, but all four of these are integral to its success - Fake Out for being Fake Out, Knock Off + Ice Punch for STAB moves with good coverage, and Protect for making the most of its baiting capabilities - replacing any of these would be extremely team-dependent.
Siren (Gardevoir) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace -> Pixilate
Nature: Timid
IVs: 31/14-15/31/30/30/31
EVs: 4 HP / 4 Def / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
-Hyper Voice
-Psyshock
-Hidden Power Ground
-Protect
Hyper Voice and Protect are obvious. Psyshock is preferred over Psychic because lol who needs a secondary STAB move if you've got Pixilate Hyper Voice, so might as well pick the option that covers special walls. Hidden Power Ground is the best coverage option for this lead pair, as it hits the Steel-types that trouble them super effectively. Unfortunately, it's incredibly weak when not 4x SE (and even then it doesn't OHKO stuff like Bastiodon4, Probopass4, and non-Scarf Heatran) and is a bit redundant with Gastrodon's Earth Power, but it's really useful just in order not to give up a ton of momentum against every opposing Steel-type ever, and whatever move you put in that slot, you won't be clicking it often anyway. Alternate options include Shadow Ball (absolutely redundant with Weavile), Taunt (largely redundant with Fake Out, Gastrodon's Clear Smog, and huge offensive pressure), Substitute (used to great success by Biosci in tandem with Follow Me Blastoise in an as far as we know still ongoing 500+ streak; I don't see it working too well with Weavile because it obviously pairs better with redirection, but it's there), and Focus Blast (mentioning this solely to point out how much it sucks and that I won't feel sorry for you if you expect to reach three-digit streaks with it and fail, but since it has the same targets as HP Ground I guess it's usable if you like this team and just want to reach 50 yet are unable to breed HP Ground).
Membrane (Gastrodon) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Storm Drain
Nature: Quiet
IVs: 31/23/31/31/31/0 4
EVs: 164 HP / 108 Def / 220 SpA / 12 SpD
-Scald
-Earth Power
-Icy Wind
-Clear Smog
turskain's Assault Vest Gastrodon set, with Icy Wind over Ice Beam. STAB attacks are obvious. The choice between Ice Beam and Icy Wind is team-dependent, but Ice Beam is largely redundant with Weavile while Icy Wind is not redundant at all with Gardevoir and Scizor. Lastly, Clear Smog is pretty cool on Gastrodon and allows it to hard check annoying targets such as Volcarona, Gyarados, and Zapdos2. The EV spread iirc is intended to survive some weaker Grass-type attacks; afaik those attacks are less relevant for my team, but it works well enough and I'm complete garbage with complex defensive EV spreads anyway, so yea :> 0 Spe Quiet is preferred over 31 Spe Modest to maximise Gastrodon's performance under Trick Room, while it doesn't care if 90% or 95% of the maison outspeeds it outside of it. (However, I guess it would be an option to go for a Speed stat of 41 in order to outspeed Escavalier..) (archival edit: yes i did this bc it's worth doing)
Pinwheel (Scizor) @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Nature: Adamant
IVs: 31/31/31/6/31/31
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
-Bullet Punch
-Bug Bite
-Superpower
-Protect
Another largely standard set; Bullet Punch and Bug Bite are mandatory, and Superpower is Scizor's best coverage option and is mostly required on this team anyway because it generally has issues with Steel-types. 44 Spe EVs put Scizor at 91 Spe, creeping a rather large amount of nasty or annoying targets such as Lanturn4. Life Orb provides Scizor with a much-needed power boost, e.g. nearly guaranteeing the OHKO on Terrakion.
Catweazle (Weavile) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
Nature: Jolly
IVs: 31/31/31/27/31/31
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
-Fake Out
-Knock Off
-Ice Punch
-Protect
Standard moves are standard; there are a couple other moves Weavile would like to run such as Ice Shard and Low Kick, but all four of these are integral to its success - Fake Out for being Fake Out, Knock Off + Ice Punch for STAB moves with good coverage, and Protect for making the most of its baiting capabilities - replacing any of these would be extremely team-dependent.
Siren (Gardevoir) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace -> Pixilate
Nature: Timid
IVs: 31/14-15/31/30/30/31
EVs: 4 HP / 4 Def / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
-Hyper Voice
-Psyshock
-Hidden Power Ground
-Protect
Hyper Voice and Protect are obvious. Psyshock is preferred over Psychic because lol who needs a secondary STAB move if you've got Pixilate Hyper Voice, so might as well pick the option that covers special walls. Hidden Power Ground is the best coverage option for this lead pair, as it hits the Steel-types that trouble them super effectively. Unfortunately, it's incredibly weak when not 4x SE (and even then it doesn't OHKO stuff like Bastiodon4, Probopass4, and non-Scarf Heatran) and is a bit redundant with Gastrodon's Earth Power, but it's really useful just in order not to give up a ton of momentum against every opposing Steel-type ever, and whatever move you put in that slot, you won't be clicking it often anyway. Alternate options include Shadow Ball (absolutely redundant with Weavile), Taunt (largely redundant with Fake Out, Gastrodon's Clear Smog, and huge offensive pressure), Substitute (used to great success by Biosci in tandem with Follow Me Blastoise in an as far as we know still ongoing 500+ streak; I don't see it working too well with Weavile because it obviously pairs better with redirection, but it's there), and Focus Blast (mentioning this solely to point out how much it sucks and that I won't feel sorry for you if you expect to reach three-digit streaks with it and fail, but since it has the same targets as HP Ground I guess it's usable if you like this team and just want to reach 50 yet are unable to breed HP Ground).
Membrane (Gastrodon) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Storm Drain
Nature: Quiet
IVs: 31/23/31/31/31/
EVs: 164 HP / 108 Def / 220 SpA / 12 SpD
-Scald
-Earth Power
-Icy Wind
-Clear Smog
turskain's Assault Vest Gastrodon set, with Icy Wind over Ice Beam. STAB attacks are obvious. The choice between Ice Beam and Icy Wind is team-dependent, but Ice Beam is largely redundant with Weavile while Icy Wind is not redundant at all with Gardevoir and Scizor. Lastly, Clear Smog is pretty cool on Gastrodon and allows it to hard check annoying targets such as Volcarona, Gyarados, and Zapdos2. The EV spread iirc is intended to survive some weaker Grass-type attacks; afaik those attacks are less relevant for my team, but it works well enough and I'm complete garbage with complex defensive EV spreads anyway, so yea :> 0 Spe Quiet is preferred over 31 Spe Modest to maximise Gastrodon's performance under Trick Room, while it doesn't care if 90% or 95% of the maison outspeeds it outside of it. (However, I guess it would be an option to go for a Speed stat of 41 in order to outspeed Escavalier..) (archival edit: yes i did this bc it's worth doing)
Pinwheel (Scizor) @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Nature: Adamant
IVs: 31/31/31/6/31/31
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
-Bullet Punch
-Bug Bite
-Superpower
-Protect
Another largely standard set; Bullet Punch and Bug Bite are mandatory, and Superpower is Scizor's best coverage option and is mostly required on this team anyway because it generally has issues with Steel-types. 44 Spe EVs put Scizor at 91 Spe, creeping a rather large amount of nasty or annoying targets such as Lanturn4. Life Orb provides Scizor with a much-needed power boost, e.g. nearly guaranteeing the OHKO on Terrakion.
When I posted my first streak with this team, I wrote that Crobat was the greatest threat to this team, due to >125 base Speed + Poison typing + likely Inner Focus. It's... how do I put this... not. Obviously it's annoying, especially with stupid past me's plan being 'hope Cross Poison doesn't crit Garde and OHKO it in return, but Scizor and Gastrodon essentially give negative fucks about anything it does and can easily 2HKO it / finish it off after an Ice Punch and slow it down for Weavile / Gardevoir to OHKO it easily, respectively, and no matter Crobat's partner it's always possible for at least one of them to switch in safely. No, the more troublesome foes are Steel-types, specifically:
957 | Cobalion3 | Jolly | Lax Incense | Swagger | Substitute | Psych Up | Iron Head | Atk/Spd
977 | Cobalion4 | Jolly | Life Orb | Iron Head | Close Combat | Quick Guard | Protect | Atk/Spd
It's not like sets 1 and 2 are foes that Weavile + Gardevoir like facing, but at least those are slower and are 2HKOed by Hyper Voice / not too threatening because not physical and no initial power, so while you have to Fake Out them they're easily dealt with if their partner isn't too threatening. These on the other hand do outrun MGarde and therefore require a bunch of switching – even though they're just as likely to target Weavile, making it all the more hilarious.
815 | Escavalier4 | Adamant | Custap Berry | Megahorn | Iron Head | Swagger | Reversal | HP/Atk
827 | Scizor4 | Adamant | Occa Berry | Bug Bite | Aerial Ace | Roost | Bullet Punch | HP/Atk
Probably the two most dangerous non-legendary Steel-types, with Scizor taking the cake due to Bullet Punch, always forcing out Gardevoir turn 1 and Weavile later at some point. Gastrodon and my own Scizor can muscle through it, but with Roost making it even harder to take down, that's easier said than done when unable to gang up on it. Escavalier is KOed by Fake Out + Knock Off + two Hyper Voices, but that requires its partner being not too threatening lol; if given free turns it hits unpleasantly hard and remains just as hard to take down. Again, though, Gastrodon (except Swagger lol) and Scizor can beat it one-on-one, especially if they can gang up on it. I never ran into these two together as a lead, and I'm quite happy about that, lol. I /assume/ Scizor and Gastrodon would be able to take them down, but it wouldn't be pretty and I'm not sure how the battle would end up if the backups are anything decent.
904 | Metagross4 | Careful | Toxic Orb | Trick | Meteor Mash | Protect | Earthquake | HP/SpD
No Attack investment yet easily OHKOes Gardevoir and bulky as all holy fuck. Knock Off does a chunk and Gastro handles it quite easily, but it forces out Gardevoir and has Protect for additional trollage.
902 | Tyranitar4 | Brave | Focus Sash | Rock Slide | Earthquake | Superpower | Dragon Tail | HP/Atk
...and sand in general, but this one is extraordinarily annoying in that it'll always OHKO Weavile through its Sash and can't be OHKOed in return. Obviously Fake Out remedies this, but in this case that only rarely helps in practice, as it's usually paired up with something that should be Faked Out too – not surprising considering it features on the teams of Punk Guys / Girls, Hikers, and Black Belts / Battle Girls. Ironically, fast Fighting-types really aren't something I usually mind seeing because they'll just take Weavile down to its Sash and turn it into terrific bait, but when they're paired up with Tyranitar – lol sand. Something similar applies to Hippowdon, but that one is considerably less threatening by itself because it can only chip away a bit at Gardevoir / Weavile.
...and just strong / fast Poison- and Fire-types and physical attackers in general obviously... Most of those are situational threats and can be dealt with quite easily by themselves (think Darmanitan4, which gets its Scarf removed with Knock Off or just outright KOed after Superpower's Defense drops while Gardevoir Protects; Aerodactyl4, which is dealth wit via Fake Out + switch in Scizor or can be slowed down by Gastrodon; Gengar4, which is easily removed by Weavile but is a nightmare for Gardevoir; Muk4, which mandates an immediate removal via Fake Out + Psyshock because lol Quick Claw Gunk Shot + Explosion + Brick Break) but can be threatening when showing up together; however, obviously those situations are wayyy too diverse and complex to cover in detail. This team has the right anti-counter game, defensive synergy, and utility moves to play its way through a LOT of potentially threatening matchups. As for field conditions, as stated sand is annoying, but Trick Room is really manageable with Weavile preventing it and Gastrodon + Scizor checking it, rain is hard checked by Gastrodon (not to mention the most dangerous Swift Swimmer in Kingdra gets destroyed by Gardevoir), sun is a bit dangerous but Sun + Chlorophyll is pretty rare and Weavile + Gardevoir destroy most Chlorophyll users, and as for hail, I'm glad Weavile is part Ice-type haha (and Scizor destroys them).
As always, may add more if I remember more
957 | Cobalion3 | Jolly | Lax Incense | Swagger | Substitute | Psych Up | Iron Head | Atk/Spd
977 | Cobalion4 | Jolly | Life Orb | Iron Head | Close Combat | Quick Guard | Protect | Atk/Spd
It's not like sets 1 and 2 are foes that Weavile + Gardevoir like facing, but at least those are slower and are 2HKOed by Hyper Voice / not too threatening because not physical and no initial power, so while you have to Fake Out them they're easily dealt with if their partner isn't too threatening. These on the other hand do outrun MGarde and therefore require a bunch of switching – even though they're just as likely to target Weavile, making it all the more hilarious.
815 | Escavalier4 | Adamant | Custap Berry | Megahorn | Iron Head | Swagger | Reversal | HP/Atk
827 | Scizor4 | Adamant | Occa Berry | Bug Bite | Aerial Ace | Roost | Bullet Punch | HP/Atk
Probably the two most dangerous non-legendary Steel-types, with Scizor taking the cake due to Bullet Punch, always forcing out Gardevoir turn 1 and Weavile later at some point. Gastrodon and my own Scizor can muscle through it, but with Roost making it even harder to take down, that's easier said than done when unable to gang up on it. Escavalier is KOed by Fake Out + Knock Off + two Hyper Voices, but that requires its partner being not too threatening lol; if given free turns it hits unpleasantly hard and remains just as hard to take down. Again, though, Gastrodon (except Swagger lol) and Scizor can beat it one-on-one, especially if they can gang up on it. I never ran into these two together as a lead, and I'm quite happy about that, lol. I /assume/ Scizor and Gastrodon would be able to take them down, but it wouldn't be pretty and I'm not sure how the battle would end up if the backups are anything decent.
904 | Metagross4 | Careful | Toxic Orb | Trick | Meteor Mash | Protect | Earthquake | HP/SpD
No Attack investment yet easily OHKOes Gardevoir and bulky as all holy fuck. Knock Off does a chunk and Gastro handles it quite easily, but it forces out Gardevoir and has Protect for additional trollage.
902 | Tyranitar4 | Brave | Focus Sash | Rock Slide | Earthquake | Superpower | Dragon Tail | HP/Atk
...and sand in general, but this one is extraordinarily annoying in that it'll always OHKO Weavile through its Sash and can't be OHKOed in return. Obviously Fake Out remedies this, but in this case that only rarely helps in practice, as it's usually paired up with something that should be Faked Out too – not surprising considering it features on the teams of Punk Guys / Girls, Hikers, and Black Belts / Battle Girls. Ironically, fast Fighting-types really aren't something I usually mind seeing because they'll just take Weavile down to its Sash and turn it into terrific bait, but when they're paired up with Tyranitar – lol sand. Something similar applies to Hippowdon, but that one is considerably less threatening by itself because it can only chip away a bit at Gardevoir / Weavile.
...and just strong / fast Poison- and Fire-types and physical attackers in general obviously... Most of those are situational threats and can be dealt with quite easily by themselves (think Darmanitan4, which gets its Scarf removed with Knock Off or just outright KOed after Superpower's Defense drops while Gardevoir Protects; Aerodactyl4, which is dealth wit via Fake Out + switch in Scizor or can be slowed down by Gastrodon; Gengar4, which is easily removed by Weavile but is a nightmare for Gardevoir; Muk4, which mandates an immediate removal via Fake Out + Psyshock because lol Quick Claw Gunk Shot + Explosion + Brick Break) but can be threatening when showing up together; however, obviously those situations are wayyy too diverse and complex to cover in detail. This team has the right anti-counter game, defensive synergy, and utility moves to play its way through a LOT of potentially threatening matchups. As for field conditions, as stated sand is annoying, but Trick Room is really manageable with Weavile preventing it and Gastrodon + Scizor checking it, rain is hard checked by Gastrodon (not to mention the most dangerous Swift Swimmer in Kingdra gets destroyed by Gardevoir), sun is a bit dangerous but Sun + Chlorophyll is pretty rare and Weavile + Gardevoir destroy most Chlorophyll users, and as for hail, I'm glad Weavile is part Ice-type haha (and Scizor destroys them).
As always, may add more if I remember more
I called this the 'second run' with this team, but it's really not, it's the sixth iirc. I've been playing this team on and off after losing in triples, and I actually already beat 283 a few streaks ago, but I lost that one at like 307 so that would've been waay to inconsequential to post about; otherwise I lost a couple of streaks in the 100s, mostly because of somewhat sloppy play in somewhat awkward matchups and just a general lack of focus/form. The 307 streak was mainly due to luck anyway (I distinctly remember a battle that I only won because of Dragonite missing Dragon Rush in a last-mon situation against Gastrodon; actually hilarious was Gastrodon + Scizor being up against an unknown Delphox set + a Torterra with Seed Bomb. I knew I was pretty much fucked, but I clicked Earth Power on Delphox + Bug Bite on Torterra anyway... as I saw Delphox charge for Solar Beam. I've definitely had some lucky breaks on this streak, but no similar for all intents and purposes lost battles once every 100 battles). After finally finally finally hitting 325 I guess that strange phenomenon called 'form' kicked back in. Even now though I'm still figuring out new optimal plays in specific scenarios, and that's probably just because this team is pretty hard to use when compared to my other teams (while it does have a standard opening in Fake Out + Hyper Voice, that one is much more easily foiled than e.g. Greninziken's and Clockwork Angels' standard plays and obviously also involves the decision which target to Fake Out - and with Weavile + Gardevoir having more flaws than my other lead pairing/trios yet Gastrodon + Scizor also being able to switch in on a pretty huge amount of stuff, the amount of situations where I have to pick between multiple 'workable but certainly not optimal' plays is pretty high.) which is probably also the reason why I lost at 'only' 607 (as opposed to 1028) due to choking in a non-straightforward situation. It sort of reminds me of how turskain mentioned at some point that Suizorus was distinctly harder to play properly than Dragonite/Aegislash/Greninja and therefore was way more prone to losing because of something like this and way less grind-friendly; I took considerably more time for this streak than for the Greninziken one, but apparently it still was too much to keep my brain functioning properly at all times. Anyway, I'm pretty much done with figuring out which one of these teams is 'better' when played to their full potential because I'm pretty sure this team still has a lot of untapped potential that I haven't figured out yet, but if anyone ever stumbles upon my two doubles teams and just wants the Starf Berry or w/e, Greninziken is the easier pick, lol. (And if you don't have a Thundurus, Zapdos (252/252 Timid Specs, TBolt/Heat Wave/HP Ice/Volt Switch) should be good enough too.)
I would have liked to get further and lose in a less infuriating manner, but I'm not sure how reasonable a goal that would be for a hypothetical new streak because 'hard to play properly' and stuff. Moreover, my main goal was to show that this team is a lot better than a 283 streak would suggest, and for that I think 607 is sufficient. I may try again at a later point just because it's fun, but w/e. In any case, supposedly 500 in doubles is respectable, so I can't be unhappy hitting it twice with two pretty different teams.
Good luck, everyone!
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Your loss brings back so many memories of so many things. The Counter, the misplay snowballing due to enemy reinforcements being able to own the shit out your own replacement, and especially being comfortable facing Set4 pokes only to have a reunion much to your dismay with a Set1-3 asshole that knows Swagger (though in my case it was a Furisode Girl's Umbreon, and the Counter was a Zoroark, for that matter..) I guess what made them jump out at me was that your misfortunes all embodied fairly recent battles of mine.Full health Gastrodon facing off against Luxray one-on-one. Should be easy, right? Unless it's this thing:
311 | Luxray1 | Lonely | Magnet | Wild Charge | Crunch | Captivate | Swagger | Atk/SpD
and the RNG gods aren't on your side. Immediate Swagger, can't get a single attack off between two Captivates and two Crunches, and that's all she wrote. Posting a streak of 607 wins in ORAS Super Doubles.
#608: JHRG-WWWW-WW22-2NBF
#351: 24BG-WWWW-WW22-3UX8
Four generally unpleasant foes in Volcarona + Muk + Darmanitan + Gengar (with Weavile dead); this replay basically shows why Gastrodon is great. Additionally:
0 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 150-176 (103.4 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Volcarona Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 116-140 (80 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
yet Volc opens with Heat Wave and even sets up QD on the second turn against a 5 HP Weavile... I also distinctly remember a battle from my 283 streak where Trevenant4 set up TR against my 1 HP Weavile, in spite of Focus Blast OHKOing even a full health Weavile multiple times over, so yeah there's definitely a LOT more to it than 'they go after guaranteed OHKOs.'
#371: K85W-WWWW-WW22-3UWB
A Metagross + Scizor lead, pretty much the next worst thing after Escavalier + Scizor. Houndoom (when you have Scizor + Gastro out) and Walrein as backups isn't too great either.
No picture this time because it obviously doesn't beat my best record - however, it does beat my best record with this team more than two times over, and we do want to have the leaderboard reflect this team's capabilities as accurately as possible, right? Right. The team is Weavile / Mega Gardevoir / Gastrodon / Scizor, and this is that 'second attempt' I already announced right after my first loss with them.
Obviously I never should have let the battle come down to that in the first place. Jensen leads with unknown Gyarados and Staraptor. Since both can OHKO both Weavile and Gardevoir multiple times over, I figure Fake Out is pointless and click Ice Punch Staraptor + Hyper Voice – the Scarf set is basically guaranteed to target Weavile anyway. It is the Scarf set, using Close Combat to knock Weavile down to its Sash, Weavile OHKOes in return, Gardevoir deals ~85% damage to Gyarados, and Gyarados uses Bulldoze to KO Weavile and deal damage to Gardevoir. I send out Scizor because Bullet Punch is cool and can KO a 15% Gyarados, out comes Arcanine. I click Protect on Scizor to preserve it one more turn and attack Arcanine with Psyshock, not anticipating anything Gyarados might do and probably valuing Scizor more than a -1 Spe Gardevoir – Arcanine even opts for Sunny Day over attacking Scizor, and Gyarados KOes Gardevoir with Giga Impact. I send out Gastrodon, KO Gyarados with Bullet Punch, Arcanine fortunately opts for KOing Scizor over Sunnybeaming the shit out of Gastrodon and sealing the loss even sooner, Gastrodon KOes Arcanine, and out comes Luxray, which will proceed to bs its way through Gastrodon. Switching out Gardevoir for Gastrodon on that turn would have prevented Gastro vs Luxray from occurring – Gastro doesn't like taking that Giga Impact at all, but it would have preserved Gardevoir (unless 'lol crit' and my only solid Fire-type check dies or Arcanine prefers finishing off Gastro over KOing Scizor, so not sure if that would have been a right play). Straight Bullet Punch and sacking Scizor (assuming Arcanine would attack) would have caused Gardevoir + Gastrodon to face off against Arcanine + Luxray – which is a guaranteed win, unless... Swagger bullshit rofl. I'm not at all confident either skipping Fake Out was the right play, but neutering Staraptor as Gyarados3 DDs / Gyarados1 TWaves and neutering Gyarados as (Reckless) Staraptor OHKOes Gardevoir before it can move aren't too great either, so urrrgh.. I wanted to lose heroically against a Scizor + Escavalier lead, I already lost my 283 streak to idiocy + bullshit, that gets old really fast. I obviously would have preferred a less infuriating loss, although I do admit I shouldn't have let it get this far in the first place.
The big, 300+ wins, improvement was putting Weavile in the lead position so as not to inadvertently select the forfeit button while Mega Evolving Gardevoir (don't judge, I almost lost my singles streak to that at some point, why the hell would you put those two buttons at the exact same place) and giving it a proper nickname... no really, apart from a couple highly subconscious feel things those things are of course completely inconsequential, and the team hasn't changed at all otherwise. What really made the difference was actually committing to this streak rather than playing it alongside other formats (which does work wonders for your focus, obviously) and waiting way longer before blacking out I guess.
This team essentially originated from playing AI multi: I wanted to use Mega Gardevoir because 'muh tutor moves', and when considering what weaknesses a partner would have to cover - Poison, Steel, Fire, Trick Room - I figured Gastrodon would make an excellent backup, while also being able to absorb stray Water-type moves for Steven's Aerodactyl. This tandem did what it was supposed to do, but it still struggled in multi because Gastrodon required support in the removal of Grass-types, which you naturally can't count on an AI partner to provide. I then set out to incorporate them on a Doubles team. I figured Mega Gardevoir would best be paired with Fake Out support, and the Fake Out user that I figured would pair best with it was Weavile. Specifically, Weavile beats the Ghost-types that trouble Mega Gardevoir, and due to its frailty and horrendous defensive typing it's likely to draw in a lot of attacks, especially after getting knocked down to its Sash, and thus buy MGarde a bunch of free turns with Protect to fire off even more Hyper Voices. Additionally, its STAB Knock Off is pretty much the best move any Fake Out user could ask for, as it covers the Ghost-types that are immune to Fake Out (and OHKOes Inner Focus Alakazam lol) and in tandem with Fake Out is brutally efficient at preventing Trick Room; lastly, Weavile is faster than all the Maison's Fake Out users (except opposing Weavile obviously), preventing their Fake Out if necessary, and its Ice typing allows it not to give a fuck about hail breaking its Sash. turskain successfully pairing up Mega Garde with Weavile in triples didn't exactly dampen my spirits either of course. As for the fourth mon, Scizor was an easy addition just because it's so damn good and provided bulk, power, priority, and another switch-in to Poison- and Steel-types, while also having excellent switch synergy with Gastrodon.
Catweazle (Weavile) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
Nature: Jolly
IVs: 31/31/31/27/31/31
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
-Fake Out
-Knock Off
-Ice Punch
-Protect
Standard moves are standard; there are a couple other moves Weavile would like to run such as Ice Shard and Low Kick, but all four of these are integral to its success - Fake Out for being Fake Out, Knock Off + Ice Punch for STAB moves with good coverage, and Protect for making the most of its baiting capabilities - replacing any of these would be extremely team-dependent.
Gardevoir @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace -> Pixilate
Nature: Timid
IVs: 31/14-15/31/30/30/31
EVs: 4 HP / 4 Def / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
-Hyper Voice
-Psyshock
-Hidden Power Ground
-Protect
Hyper Voice and Protect are obvious. Psyshock is preferred over Psychic because lol who needs a secondary STAB move if you've got Pixilate Hyper Voice, so might as well pick the option that covers special walls. Hidden Power Ground is the best coverage option for this lead pair, as it hits the Steel-types that trouble them super effectively. Unfortunately, it's incredibly weak when not 4x SE (and even then it doesn't OHKO stuff like Bastiodon4, Probopass4, and non-Scarf Heatran) and is a bit redundant with Gastrodon's Earth Power, but it's really useful just in order not to give up a ton of momentum against every opposing Steel-type ever, and whatever move you put in that slot, you won't be clicking it often anyway. Alternate options include Shadow Ball (absolutely redundant with Weavile), Taunt (largely redundant with Fake Out, Gastrodon's Clear Smog, and huge offensive pressure), Substitute (used to great success by Biosci in tandem with Follow Me Blastoise in an as far as we know still ongoing 500+ streak; I don't see it working too well with Weavile because it obviously pairs better with redirection, but it's there), and Focus Blast (mentioning this solely to point out how much it sucks and that I won't feel sorry for you if you expect to reach three-digit streaks with it and fail, but since it has the same targets as HP Ground I guess it's usable if you like this team and just want to reach 50 yet are unable to breed HP Ground).
Gary (Gastrodon) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Storm Drain
Nature: Quiet
IVs: 31/23/31/31/31/0
EVs: 164 HP / 108 Def / 220 SpA / 12 SpD
-Scald
-Earth Power
-Icy Wind
-Clear Smog
turskain's Assault Vest Gastrodon set, with Icy Wind over Ice Beam. STAB attacks are obvious. The choice between Ice Beam and Icy Wind is team-dependent, but Ice Beam is largely redundant with Weavile while Icy Wind is not redundant at all with Gardevoir and Scizor. Lastly, Clear Smog is pretty cool on Gastrodon and allows it to hard check annoying targets such as Volcarona, Gyarados, and Zapdos2. The EV spread iirc is intended to survive some weaker Grass-type attacks; afaik those attacks are less relevant for my team, but it works well enough and I'm complete garbage with complex defensive EV spreads anyway, so yea :> 0 Spe Quiet is preferred over 31 Spe Modest to maximise Gastrodon's performance under Trick Room, while it doesn't care if 90% or 95% of the maison outspeeds it outside of it. (However, I guess it would be an option to go for a Speed stat of 41 in order to outspeed Escavalier..)
Gene (Scizor) @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Nature: Adamant
IVs: 31/31/31/6/31/31
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
-Bullet Punch
-Bug Bite
-Superpower
-Protect
Another largely standard set; Bullet Punch and Bug Bite are mandatory, and Superpower is Scizor's best coverage option and is mostly required on this team anyway because it generally has issues with Steel-types. 44 Spe EVs put Scizor at 91 Spe, creeping a rather large amount of nasty or annoying targets such as Lanturn4. Life Orb provides Scizor with a much-needed power boost, e.g. nearly guaranteeing the OHKO on Terrakion.
When I posted my first streak with this team, I wrote that Crobat was the greatest threat to this team, due to >125 base Speed + Poison typing + likely Inner Focus. It's... how do I put this... not. Obviously it's annoying, especially with stupid past me's plan being 'hope Cross Poison doesn't crit Garde and OHKO it in return, but Scizor and Gastrodon essentially give negative fucks about anything it does and can easily 2HKO it / finish it off after an Ice Punch and slow it down for Weavile / Gardevoir to OHKO it easily, respectively, and no matter Crobat's partner it's always possible for at least one of them to switch in safely. No, the more troublesome foes are Steel-types, specifically:
957 | Cobalion3 | Jolly | Lax Incense | Swagger | Substitute | Psych Up | Iron Head | Atk/Spd
977 | Cobalion4 | Jolly | Life Orb | Iron Head | Close Combat | Quick Guard | Protect | Atk/Spd
It's not like sets 1 and 2 are foes that Weavile + Gardevoir like facing, but at least those are slower and are 2HKOed by Hyper Voice / not too threatening because not physical and no initial power, so while you have to Fake Out them they're easily dealt with if their partner isn't too threatening. These on the other hand do outrun MGarde and therefore require a bunch of switching – even though they're just as likely to target Weavile, making it all the more hilarious.
815 | Escavalier4 | Adamant | Custap Berry | Megahorn | Iron Head | Swagger | Reversal | HP/Atk
827 | Scizor4 | Adamant | Occa Berry | Bug Bite | Aerial Ace | Roost | Bullet Punch | HP/Atk
Probably the two most dangerous non-legendary Steel-types, with Scizor taking the cake due to Bullet Punch, always forcing out Gardevoir turn 1 and Weavile later at some point. Gastrodon and my own Scizor can muscle through it, but with Roost making it even harder to take down, that's easier said than done when unable to gang up on it. Escavalier is KOed by Fake Out + Knock Off + two Hyper Voices, but that requires its partner being not too threatening lol; if given free turns it hits unpleasantly hard and remains just as hard to take down. Again, though, Gastrodon (except Swagger lol) and Scizor can beat it one-on-one, especially if they can gang up on it. I never ran into these two together as a lead, and I'm quite happy about that, lol. I /assume/ Scizor and Gastrodon would be able to take them down, but it wouldn't be pretty and I'm not sure how the battle would end up if the backups are anything decent.
904 | Metagross4 | Careful | Toxic Orb | Trick | Meteor Mash | Protect | Earthquake | HP/SpD
No Attack investment yet easily OHKOes Gardevoir and bulky as all holy fuck. Knock Off does a chunk and Gastro handles it quite easily, but it forces out Gardevoir and has Protect for additional trollage.
902 | Tyranitar4 | Brave | Focus Sash | Rock Slide | Earthquake | Superpower | Dragon Tail | HP/Atk
...and sand in general, but this one is extraordinarily annoying in that it'll always OHKO Weavile through its Sash and can't be OHKOed in return. Obviously Fake Out remedies this, but in this case that only rarely helps in practice, as it's usually paired up with something that should be Faked Out too – not surprising considering it features on the teams of Punk Guys / Girls, Hikers, and Black Belts / Battle Girls. Ironically, fast Fighting-types really aren't something I usually mind seeing because they'll just take Weavile down to its Sash and turn it into terrific bait, but when they're paired up with Tyranitar – lol sand. Something similar applies to Hippowdon, but that one is considerably less threatening by itself because it can only chip away a bit at Gardevoir / Weavile.
...and just strong / fast Poison- and Fire-types and physical attackers in general obviously... Most of those are situational threats and can be dealt with quite easily by themselves (think Darmanitan4, which gets its Scarf removed with Knock Off or just outright KOed after Superpower's Defense drops while Gardevoir Protects; Aerodactyl4, which is dealth wit via Fake Out + switch in Scizor or can be slowed down by Gastrodon; Gengar4, which is easily removed by Weavile but is a nightmare for Gardevoir; Muk4, which mandates an immediate removal via Fake Out + Psyshock because lol Quick Claw Gunk Shot + Explosion + Brick Break) but can be threatening when showing up together; however, obviously those situations are wayyy too diverse and complex to cover in detail. This team has the right anti-counter game, defensive synergy, and utility moves to play its way through a LOT of potentially threatening matchups. As for field conditions, as stated sand is annoying, but Trick Room is really manageable with Weavile preventing it and Gastrodon + Scizor checking it, rain is hard checked by Gastrodon (not to mention the most dangerous Swift Swimmer in Kingdra gets destroyed by Gardevoir), sun is a bit dangerous but Sun + Chlorophyll is pretty rare and Weavile + Gardevoir destroy most Chlorophyll users, and as for hail, I'm glad Weavile is part Ice-type haha (and Scizor destroys them).
As always, may add more if I remember more
I called this the 'second run' with this team, but it's really not, it's the sixth iirc. I've been playing this team on and off after losing in triples, and I actually already beat 283 a few streaks ago, but I lost that one at like 307 so that would've been waay to inconsequential to post about; otherwise I lost a couple of streaks in the 100s, mostly because of somewhat sloppy play in somewhat awkward matchups and just a general lack of focus/form. The 307 streak was mainly due to luck anyway (I distinctly remember a battle that I only won because of Dragonite missing Dragon Rush in a last-mon situation against Gastrodon; actually hilarious was Gastrodon + Scizor being up against an unknown Delphox set + a Torterra with Seed Bomb. I knew I was pretty much fucked, but I clicked Earth Power on Delphox + Bug Bite on Torterra anyway... as I saw Delphox charge for Solar Beam. I've definitely had some lucky breaks on this streak, but no similar for all intents and purposes lost battles once every 100 battles). After finally finally finally hitting 325 I guess that strange phenomenon called 'form' kicked back in. Even now though I'm still figuring out new optimal plays in specific scenarios, and that's probably just because this team is pretty hard to use when compared to my other teams (while it does have a standard opening in Fake Out + Hyper Voice, that one is much more easily foiled than e.g. Greninziken's and Clockwork Angels' standard plays and obviously also involves the decision which target to Fake Out - and with Weavile + Gardevoir having more flaws than my other lead pairing/trios yet Gastrodon + Scizor also being able to switch in on a pretty huge amount of stuff, the amount of situations where I have to pick between multiple 'workable but certainly not optimal' plays is pretty high.) which is probably also the reason why I lost at 'only' 607 (as opposed to 1028) due to choking in a non-straightforward situation. It sort of reminds me of how turskain mentioned at some point that Suizorus was distinctly harder to play properly than Dragonite/Aegislash/Greninja and therefore was way more prone to losing because of something like this and way less grind-friendly; I took considerably more time for this streak than for the Greninziken one, but apparently it still was too much to keep my brain functioning properly at all times. Anyway, I'm pretty much done with figuring out which one of these teams is 'better' when played to their full potential because I'm pretty sure this team still has a lot of untapped potential that I haven't figured out yet, but if anyone ever stumbles upon my two doubles teams and just wants the Starf Berry or w/e, Greninziken is the easier pick, lol. (And if you don't have a Thundurus, Zapdos (252/252 Timid Specs, TBolt/Heat Wave/HP Ice/Volt Switch) should be good enough too.)
I would have liked to get further and lose in a less infuriating manner, but I'm not sure how reasonable a goal that would be for a hypothetical new streak because 'hard to play properly' and stuff. Moreover, my main goal was to show that this team is a lot better than a 283 streak would suggest, and for that I think 607 is sufficient. I may try again at a later point just because it's fun, but w/e. In any case, supposedly 500 in doubles is respectable, so I can't be unhappy hitting it twice with two pretty different teams.
Good luck, everyone!
(fwiw I'll also finally finally be editing a near-comprehensive what-to-do-against-lead-X list into my singles streak writeup tomorrow, it's almost done but it's late here now)
Never think that a team/streak that loses at a fraction of your record isn't worth posting! Aren't we kind of like a support group as it is? :P Besides which, even doomed streaks can usually have some battles worth reminiscing, especially if they carried on for over 300 battles as yours did. And to be honest, I prefer walls of text to a mere pancake stack of replays, because I don't have to boot up the 3DS, I can read them on my phone while on the shitter (well the 3DS is intimately familiar with that too but um moving on) and the self-analysis and/or ranting adds something that merely witnessing untimely freezes and crits just can't top. Though I agree with anyone that feels some battles dredge up too much venom/disappointment/embarassment to warstory.
Edit: not to throw mud at Fluke, but I looked at his original team post and I find no small amount of amusement in the damning remark in his threats section, specifically Quick Claw, which to me very heavily implies he believes QC Walrein actually exists. I'm guilty of failing to look up sets of pokes I don't remember facing in ages but lawl
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Hey everyone,
first of all, I want to start by stating that I'm an absolute battle maison noob and barely scratched the surface of competitve in X/Y & ORAS. So everything I've written is either something I suspect or have read somewhere else/here. I'd also like to thank a lot of the 'veterans' for the detailed write ups in this thread, awesome and inspiring guys! It's great to read how complex the maison is, even more then I expected.
Now, I ended up here because of the...unexpected difficulty I had beating even the normal streak. I did manage it with my ORAS team, mainly because of the prowess of mega's and the added ease of EV training(Having a favorable natured Mega-Altaria with good EV's was taste for the E4 as well). I've played and completed most games since gen I, but I never really had the time/will/understanding to get into serious battling or the end game content(the subway, PWT, etc.). I did play around with it a bit, and lost interest quite quick.
But now, after beating ORAS a while back, I decided to pick up the game again to look into completing my pokedexes and explore the options for end-game a bit. I immediately loved the maison's idea of smaller team set ups streaking versus computer teams. Small, fun-sized chunks of challenging battles, with the potential to grow indefinitely in(in theory) in knowledge and skill. However, the maison decided to make it even more fun by punching me in the weedle for thinking I could best it with mere intuition and experience.
So, after two days of reading, breeding, and drafting teams, I came to some conclusions: A) there isn't that much well documented information on the maison outside this tread. B) I'm really interested in getting better in this. C) If I wanted to get better, I'd need insights, feedback and more practice.
And thus, I ended up making an account, decided to write a wall of text to introduce myself a little and come here with a team(well, a team and a half) and the hope you guys can help me understand this stuff better!
I decided to focus myself on super doubles with a team of 4. This is what I've been using with moderate succes:
Starters:
Tyranitar @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 180HP / 12Atk/ 132Def/ 4SpD/ 180Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Rock Slide
- Dragon Dance
- Protect
Amoonguss @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Effect Spore(haven't been able to get a Regenerator one yet, and effect spore works well for spreading the occasional condition)
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Rage Powder
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Protect
A bulky Tyranitar with Amoonguss to help him set up and scout moves. Rage Powder to prevent the enemy from focussing tyranitar with 2 pokemons, giving me time to dragondance or clear one-hit-ko's and Amoonguss usually can survive a double hit on turn one, allowing me to either set up another DD or start taking out targets. Spore is there in case the enemy clearly wants to set up itself, protect is to scout things out and dodge obvious moves, Giga Drain helps me with bulky water types that tyranitar can't take down. I feel like the biggest problem with these two are grass pokemon that can ignore Amoonguss and wreck Tyranitar. Also some fighting types give me a hard times if they manage to knock out tyranitar before he did his job or gets to critical mass. Sandstorm and the mega evolution give me weather control to a certain degree. It also helps to give Tyranitar more Special bulk.
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Mat Block
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Protect
If Amoonguss goes down, Greninja allows me to(usually) set up another DD with Mat Block. This usually gives me a really fast, really hard hitting Tyranitar with decent coverage, with back up from Greninja.
Aegislash @ Weakness Policy
EVs: 252 HP / 100 SpA / 156 SpD
Quiet Nature
- King's Shield
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
And another back up for the weaknesses Tyranitar has, Weakness Policy will turn super effect attacks into +2 boosted attacks, with Kings Shield being a great way to cripple physical attackers.
Sooo? Am I even doing something right?
EDIT:
After some more testing, I start to dislike the whole Amoonguss/Tyranitar duo in this mode more and more. Might swap to Togekiss/Tyranitar with 252Atk/252Spe jollyTar with EQ and Rockslide with a Followme+helping hand Togekiss, see how that works out.
first of all, I want to start by stating that I'm an absolute battle maison noob and barely scratched the surface of competitve in X/Y & ORAS. So everything I've written is either something I suspect or have read somewhere else/here. I'd also like to thank a lot of the 'veterans' for the detailed write ups in this thread, awesome and inspiring guys! It's great to read how complex the maison is, even more then I expected.
Now, I ended up here because of the...unexpected difficulty I had beating even the normal streak. I did manage it with my ORAS team, mainly because of the prowess of mega's and the added ease of EV training(Having a favorable natured Mega-Altaria with good EV's was taste for the E4 as well). I've played and completed most games since gen I, but I never really had the time/will/understanding to get into serious battling or the end game content(the subway, PWT, etc.). I did play around with it a bit, and lost interest quite quick.
But now, after beating ORAS a while back, I decided to pick up the game again to look into completing my pokedexes and explore the options for end-game a bit. I immediately loved the maison's idea of smaller team set ups streaking versus computer teams. Small, fun-sized chunks of challenging battles, with the potential to grow indefinitely in(in theory) in knowledge and skill. However, the maison decided to make it even more fun by punching me in the weedle for thinking I could best it with mere intuition and experience.
So, after two days of reading, breeding, and drafting teams, I came to some conclusions: A) there isn't that much well documented information on the maison outside this tread. B) I'm really interested in getting better in this. C) If I wanted to get better, I'd need insights, feedback and more practice.
And thus, I ended up making an account, decided to write a wall of text to introduce myself a little and come here with a team(well, a team and a half) and the hope you guys can help me understand this stuff better!
I decided to focus myself on super doubles with a team of 4. This is what I've been using with moderate succes:
Starters:
Tyranitar @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 180HP / 12Atk/ 132Def/ 4SpD/ 180Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Rock Slide
- Dragon Dance
- Protect
Amoonguss @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Effect Spore(haven't been able to get a Regenerator one yet, and effect spore works well for spreading the occasional condition)
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Rage Powder
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Protect
A bulky Tyranitar with Amoonguss to help him set up and scout moves. Rage Powder to prevent the enemy from focussing tyranitar with 2 pokemons, giving me time to dragondance or clear one-hit-ko's and Amoonguss usually can survive a double hit on turn one, allowing me to either set up another DD or start taking out targets. Spore is there in case the enemy clearly wants to set up itself, protect is to scout things out and dodge obvious moves, Giga Drain helps me with bulky water types that tyranitar can't take down. I feel like the biggest problem with these two are grass pokemon that can ignore Amoonguss and wreck Tyranitar. Also some fighting types give me a hard times if they manage to knock out tyranitar before he did his job or gets to critical mass. Sandstorm and the mega evolution give me weather control to a certain degree. It also helps to give Tyranitar more Special bulk.
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Mat Block
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Protect
If Amoonguss goes down, Greninja allows me to(usually) set up another DD with Mat Block. This usually gives me a really fast, really hard hitting Tyranitar with decent coverage, with back up from Greninja.
Aegislash @ Weakness Policy
EVs: 252 HP / 100 SpA / 156 SpD
Quiet Nature
- King's Shield
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
And another back up for the weaknesses Tyranitar has, Weakness Policy will turn super effect attacks into +2 boosted attacks, with Kings Shield being a great way to cripple physical attackers.
Sooo? Am I even doing something right?
EDIT:
After some more testing, I start to dislike the whole Amoonguss/Tyranitar duo in this mode more and more. Might swap to Togekiss/Tyranitar with 252Atk/252Spe jollyTar with EQ and Rockslide with a Followme+helping hand Togekiss, see how that works out.
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Looks like a good start. I'm not the biggest doubles expert but Togekiss would definitely help Tyranitar get a boost or two. The next thing is to remember that allowing Tyranitar to do a lot of damage is the means to the end, not the end itself. I'm not going to do the specific calcs, but there are going to be quite a few Pokemon Tyranitar easily handles without any support and some that Tyranitar would need to be at +6 to have a shot at beating. Since each additional boost has less of an effect, it's going to be better to think "What does really well against the stuff that a +1 Tyranitar has trouble with?" rather than "How can Tyranitar get to +2 or +3 more easily?" especially because Rock Slide can miss.
Thanks, yea, the diminishing returns on boosts. Realized that myself today as well. Using the post from Vaporeonice early in this thread, I've tested Tyranitar with double DD under it's belt vs quite some things I've lost to. Quake+slide certainly helps with covering some weaknesses. With Helping hand and +1, most things get into the OHKO range or take heavy damage. So I'm now looking into something cheesy(Swords dance + Baton pass Gliscor) combined with an entry hazard set upper, preferably with Explode to clear the way for a +2 Megatar with helping hand support or a Turn of Dazzeling Gleam to soften up scrafty/some dragons with tyranitar protecting. Will report results later.
I'm currently working on a eruption team and came up with a a question.
1.Assuming the lead is greninja/typlosion/M-CharizardY would it be more advantageous to use blaze or solar power on charizard. Obviously its gonna be very minimal but after doing some calcs on trace pokemon. I came up with this
248+ SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir in Sun: 126-148 (88.1 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
(126, 127, 129, 130, 132, 133, 135, 136, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 145, 147, 148)
After solar power damage it would just barely ensure the KO on it. It would boost gardevoir Spa but all the gardevoirs are slower than greninja so it would be easily mat blocked. Porygon2 doesn't really get effected by solar power, so in my eyes solar power is slightly better.
Ive actually already started the streak and it is ongoing at 111 wins. I know it's not a lot but hey this is the guy whose never gotten past 5 wins(Not true)
Battle video:2GAW-WWWW-WW23-548S
Greninja@Focus sash**Sothe
Timid
Protean
Mat block
Dark pulse
Ice beam
Grass knot
4HP\4Def\252Spa\4Spdef\244Spe
Typhosion@Choice scarf**Zuko
Modest
Flash Fire
Eruption
Solar beam
Flamethrower
Hidden power(Ground)
12HP\248Spa\244Spe
Charizard@CharizarditeY**Bolganone
Timid
Blaze-->Drought
Flamethrower
Solar beam
Dragon pulse
Protect
4HP\252Spa\252Spe
Gastrodon@Assault vest**Tripe
Modest
Storm drain
Earth power
Scald
Ice beam
Sludger bomb
180HP\92Def\220Spa\12Spdef\4Spe(Not sure why turskain didn't use these evs up, 4Spe eve does help it beat other gastrodons)
Scizor@Choice Band**Lon'qu
Adamant
Technician
Bullet punch
U-turn
Super power
Quick attack
212HP\252Atk\44spe
Hydreigon@Life orb**Grima
Modest
Levitate
Dark pulse
Dragon pulse
Flamethrower
Protect
4HP\252Spa\252Spe
When choosing Pokemon with eruption you are really restricted to typhosion and entei. I chose Typhlosion because what your trading is a significant amount of bulk for a little bit of power. Sounds like a bad trade right? Now look at this
248+ SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jolteon in Sun: 145-172 (103.5 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
248+ SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crobat in Sun: 168-198 (105 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
248+ SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Braviary in Sun: 177-208 (101.1 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
248+ SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manectric in Sun: 210-247 (144.8 - 170.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
248+ SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl in Sun: 88-104 (56.7 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
248+ SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darmanitan in Sun: 111-131 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Typhosion takes out those over 190Spe Pokemon in one blow that modest entei could'nt and deals insane damage to their resided hits too. This allows charizard to protect against a lot of attacks mainly aerodactyl, darmanitan, and manectric.
Comments are always appreciated!
1.Assuming the lead is greninja/typlosion/M-CharizardY would it be more advantageous to use blaze or solar power on charizard. Obviously its gonna be very minimal but after doing some calcs on trace pokemon. I came up with this
248+ SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir in Sun: 126-148 (88.1 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
(126, 127, 129, 130, 132, 133, 135, 136, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 145, 147, 148)
After solar power damage it would just barely ensure the KO on it. It would boost gardevoir Spa but all the gardevoirs are slower than greninja so it would be easily mat blocked. Porygon2 doesn't really get effected by solar power, so in my eyes solar power is slightly better.
Ive actually already started the streak and it is ongoing at 111 wins. I know it's not a lot but hey this is the guy whose never gotten past 5 wins(Not true)
Battle video:2GAW-WWWW-WW23-548S
Greninja@Focus sash**Sothe
Timid
Protean
Mat block
Dark pulse
Ice beam
Grass knot
4HP\4Def\252Spa\4Spdef\244Spe
Typhosion@Choice scarf**Zuko
Modest
Flash Fire
Eruption
Solar beam
Flamethrower
Hidden power(Ground)
12HP\248Spa\244Spe
Charizard@CharizarditeY**Bolganone
Timid
Blaze-->Drought
Flamethrower
Solar beam
Dragon pulse
Protect
4HP\252Spa\252Spe
Gastrodon@Assault vest**Tripe
Modest
Storm drain
Earth power
Scald
Ice beam
Sludger bomb
180HP\92Def\220Spa\12Spdef\4Spe(Not sure why turskain didn't use these evs up, 4Spe eve does help it beat other gastrodons)
Scizor@Choice Band**Lon'qu
Adamant
Technician
Bullet punch
U-turn
Super power
Quick attack
212HP\252Atk\44spe
Hydreigon@Life orb**Grima
Modest
Levitate
Dark pulse
Dragon pulse
Flamethrower
Protect
4HP\252Spa\252Spe
When choosing Pokemon with eruption you are really restricted to typhosion and entei. I chose Typhlosion because what your trading is a significant amount of bulk for a little bit of power. Sounds like a bad trade right? Now look at this
248+ SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jolteon in Sun: 145-172 (103.5 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
248+ SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crobat in Sun: 168-198 (105 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
248+ SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Braviary in Sun: 177-208 (101.1 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
248+ SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manectric in Sun: 210-247 (144.8 - 170.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
248+ SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl in Sun: 88-104 (56.7 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
248+ SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darmanitan in Sun: 111-131 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Typhosion takes out those over 190Spe Pokemon in one blow that modest entei could'nt and deals insane damage to their resided hits too. This allows charizard to protect against a lot of attacks mainly aerodactyl, darmanitan, and manectric.
Comments are always appreciated!
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