edit: at 1,200 as of 9-7-14 at 2:35pm EDT
It's not just that I've won at least 1,182 battles with this team. And it's not just that I've won 1,182 battles in a row with this team. It's that...along the way, I have won every single battle with this team.
I've used a lot of different teams in 3-on-3 play over the years. Trick teams, All Choice teams, goodstuffs teams. In every different iteration of 3-on-3 play, I eventually feel that I've arrived at "the best team", be it
Startarchomp in DP,
Team Drapula II in Platinum (and the identical HGSS),
Team Whimespronite in BW, and of course
Team Suizorus in XY. I was confident enough in all those teams to chase and make records with them.
Then, just as Rhydon4 in DP (QC EQ and Megahorn) had made me question Startarchomp, Hurrrrrrrrnadus made me question Suizorus.
1 | Tornadus | Timid | Life Orb | Hurricane | Grass Knot | Focus Blast | Dark Pulse | Spd/SpA
You've faced this before. You don't like it. I don't like it. Nobody likes it. You can't even use this set yourself, not any more than you can rely on OHKOs for a long streak. Flying/Fighting is marvelous coverage, of course, only resisted by Zapdos, Thundurus, Aegislash and Mawile (don't say Emolga until someone breaks VGC with that too lol), but obviously 70% accuracy is a giant no-no (unless you're a Veteran!). And of course, "oops you got confused" is the big decider anyway due to no immunities for Flying. I think only, like, "lead Focus Blast
bait switches to something like TB Gengar or Scarf Zapdos" or Assault Vest Own Tempo Slowbro has a decent shot of actually countering this thing (counter means switching in, not checking by virtue of "being lead Greninja".)
Hurrrnadus is a huge dumb luckbox of a genie, one that smugly decides when your "can you miss for once?" wish will be granted. It wasn't, one battle in the mid 100s after a restart with Suizorus, after OHKOing Haxorus with Hurricane (which doesn't always kill as I may have mentioned before), then not missing against Scizor in between two Bullet Punches (can't Roost stall Hurricane to scout for wish-granting misses because "oops you got confused"), which were followed by two legendary Electrics that Suicune and a 35% Scizor couldn't overcome.
You don't need a battle video for that. It was a relatively straightforward loss, one devoid of any real hax. I've always loathed Hurrrrrnadus, but kind of thought I could "play around it", or that I "wouldn't see it often as a lead". But when I took a rare look at the leaderboard (last time I checked I was 2nd) and saw
StarKO almost break 1,000 with a goodstuffs team and
VaporeonIce well over 1,000, that settled it for me. Team Suizorus would have to be shelved if I were to take this seriously.
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And seriously I did. Nothing in my mind would be worse than losing at battle 784 or 947 to Hurrrrnadus, so back to the drawing board and my pokemon boxes I went. Throughout my efforts with Suizorus, I had always wanted to give Greninja another shot, because Haxorus had convinced me that a goodstuffs team could go far in the Maison. I'd tried it before with Aegislash and Hydreigon but that failed (because Scarf Hydra is awful "imo"). Here is my unedited theorymon around a new Greninja lead team. Bolded text in brackets will contain my commentary.
greninja/aegi (real set)[so not Iron Head but Sacred Sword]/status taker lol. how about sylveon? eh clefable may be better, magic guard. or chansey sigh. why not gliscor? because boring i guess [lol, ok]
maybe greninja/garchomp/suicune works lol, no priority and doesn't really like togekiss or the speed crew
garchomp/aegi/suicune...eh. garchomp is no longer checkmate pkmn
greninja/aegi/megakanga with super bulk and rest for status could be a thing...return/rest/sucker punch/pup. does wall idiot ghosts and that's a thing ((BAN ME PLEASE) [lol])
really like this idea...kanga is ridicubulk with 212/145/120/x/167/120 stats, looking like volcarona shit (and yes, that sidetracked me into wanting to use volcarona again, sigh. i really cant use it? ok "good" it really hates heatran and flareon etc and it's not like your team loves those. chestorest would be a thing with quiver dance fiery dance and move but move would have to be like idk )
252 Timid Jolteon (90bp Electric Special)
vs. 252/252 Careful Kangaskhan : 51 - 60 24.1% - 28.3%
but you can't ME on the switch so sigh. scrafty takes 18-21.5% megacareful with AV, shed skin is the point and perhaps pup is too. pup/drain/knock off/ip is a thingggggg with shed skin. who gives a shit about fairies with aegi
yes, even with the heat wave weakness. aegi can actually take a heat wave/flamethrower (part of why I liked IH) and sd...but it can't kill with just ss
I guess toxic chansey would be a thing
The thing is...I didn't have a Chansey in my box, and wasn't about to start looking for one to breed in the early theorymon stages. So I tried out Greninja/Aegislash/Kangaskhan (just the standard 4HP/252Atk/252Spe one I had) and it was...ok. Surf/DP/IB/GK is standard, but Greninja suffers hardcore from four moveslot syndrome in Maison play when your goal is to win literally thousands of battles.
If you have dp, ib, gk and hp ground, do you need surf? Fire types get annoying I guess, especially moltres’s lame ass, rocks get hit by hp ground (bastiodon) and you resist rock, grounds get ib or gk basically. Dropping gk means swampert, whiscash, and quagsire have more fun which is kinda sucky given aegi but whatever. Moltres is way too stupid
Hp ground basically always ohkos zone cool (sturdy), does 159-189%. With that you can hp ground on it and if it doesn’t die switch kanga into flash cannon then power up punch for the free +1 boost. Then there’s mud sport which has hilariously improved in obscurity over the generation, making electric moves do 1/3 damage for five turns even if you switch. Good move much for my team? [except for where actually breeding for mud sport would be...funny]
Really don’t like electrics, like raikou kind of sucks I don’t want to switch into that. Lo gk does 57-68%, “eb” gk does 44-52%. Eb hp ground does 65-78%
K this doesn’t pass the smell test. Aegislash can’t even beat jolteon without being too weak to kill the next poke. +2 SS only does 90% min to jolteon? If I need +4 to guarantee a kill while taking three hits minimum if I want to be set up at all (or else I’d use AV or something) why wouldn’t I just use scizor? It can at least roost, and +4 BP ohkos jolteon every time
Don’t think this team can have kanga, I hate electrics and thunderwave. Greninja/Aegislash miss one type, your third should pretty much absolutely resist it. Not in love with garchomp’s proficiency with the speed crew but should I really care, aegislash or greninja switch in and ohko everything
So I put Garchomp in as the third over Kanga, still wanting desperately to use Greninja as a lead, but still theorymonning.
Greninja/scizor/dragonite?
How about cm rest latias? Isn’t thrilled with (signal beam) jolteon
Whats wrong with greninja/kanga/garchomp? Extra[sensory] on ninja for fighters, can’t you go lum sd eq dc pj on chomp and extra careful on kanga? doesn’t like fighters at all though despite extra so eh. Doesn’t like ohko leads either
Greninja/garchomp/mega gyara wouldn’t be so bad if it weren’t for tb slurpuff (and other things that don’t spring to mind immediately). Doesn’t really love having to deal with cofag
Scizor garchomp gyarados hey where did greninja go lol [all jokes aside this is foretelling]
I mean with hp ground all I really care about is switching out of jolteon right? Oh and bulky waters wheee
Ninja: surf/dp/ib/gk
Aegi: ss/ss/sss/s/s//s/sss/ lolzolzozlzo [of the seven words of the standard moves, six begin with "s" lol]
Chomp@[...@what? wasnt sure about AV or EB or what]: eq/dc/pj/or
Poison Jab would just have been for Kiss and friends, and I didn't think *that* passed the smell test any more than Ninja/Aegi/Kanga had. The theorymon continued in between battles.
Against kiss, ninja can just “ohko” with ib (86-101 with EB), aegi can SS then go to either other poke for cleanup, or garchomp can…kill with pj. Either by virtue of AV or having at least one SD. [envisioning real scenarios I'd face Togekiss4]
Wonder if gliscor isn’t still best lol [hint: if kangliscune has anything to say about it, it is/"was"] [this comment was made after battle like 800 or whatever]
Against (BAN ME PLEASE) I have to eq basically for no damage [if i used garchomp] and hope it burns me, gliscor doesn’t care.
Scizor suicune gliscor may be cool, doesn’t like flying but whatever. Suicune covers gliscor perfectly
Kanga/suicune/gliscor…now this may be a pokemon. [ding ding ding] Kanga only cares about status and fighters and what better pokemon than cune and scor respectively? Suikangascor, 12 chars even for XY awesome team? Lol I basically guarantee I’m missing something glaring. [not really, somehow] [I prefer Team Kangliscune but it's pretty close]
Doesn’t like lead dragons too much but really? What are they going to do, lati@s are on that CM trip and everything else just dies.
And guess who’s not faster than Kangaskhan? That’s right, fuck off Moltres (not that Suicune isn’t generally a hard counter). Volcarona is a tad scary but I’m sure Return is good enough.
Speed crew…have fun with Sucker Punch. Including you, Starmie…[bittersweet because I wanted to use it, kind of, but knew better]
Jynx4 is a reason to stay jolly because have fun with lovely kiss/dry skin/blizzard with kanga/cune/gliscor. Moltres 1 and 2 are 142 speed though. Maybe depends on volcarona’s dumb ass whee. Everything else to be fair is a point for Adamant [more foretelling!!!]
Oh my goodness is gliscor stupid amazing. This isn’t even the right stats, kind of like with L 40 suicune, it doesn’t even matter. ["isn't even the right stats" meant I was pretty sure that 252HP/252Def/4Spe wasn't right/necessary, with that very same megabold Suicune of Team Suizorus I'm referring to that I'd accidentally forgotten to level up to 50 after EV training already being "the" defensive wall for Team Kangliscune , but Gliscor was still destroying stuff]
Calc burned +2 return then +2 sucker punch on volcarona “for fun” to see whether you should PuP, Jolly or not [we all know how big a threat Volcarona4 is to basically any team so I knew to keep it in mind]
I'd started playing with this team somewhere between 0 and 200, i genuinely really can't remember if the Greninja lead experiment lost because I would just have immediately thrown my Jolly Kanga in with my Impish 252HP/252Def/4Spe Gliscor to start grinding back up. Here's the pokes (finally):
Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite ** Kangaroo Kid
Ability: Scrappy -> Parental Bond
EVs: 4HP/252Atk/252Spe
Lv. 50 (Mega)stats: 181/177/120/72/120/167(156 pre-Mega)
Nature: Jolly
~ Return
~ Power-Up Punch
~ Sucker Punch
~ Earthquake
Standard. I insult you by even typing any more words here, even despite you having (maybe) read the eight million preceding it.
Suicune @ Leftovers ** Holy Water
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 196HP/252Def/60Spe
Lv. 50 stats: 200/78/183/110/135/113
Nature: Bold
~ Scald
~ Icy Wind
~ Calm Mind
~ Rest
Ibid.
Glisor (M) @ Toxic Orb ** I'm Batman
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252HP/252Def/4Spe
Lv. 50 stats: 182/115/194/58/95/116
Nature: Impish
~ Earthquake
~ Toxic
~ Substitute
~ Protect
So this thing. I was never too keen on Gliscor because of how much of a jerk it was in DP with that Guillotine, possible Hyper Cutter to block Charm, and immunity to Thunderwave. But it *did* stop Peterko's streak at 2,363, otherwise he may "never" have lost (I'm serious, may have been hundreds if not thousands of battles later) so in a way maybe this is my way of paying my respects? lol, I'd obviously gotten over my general dislike of it since I had a megaimpish one ready to go, but I genuinely wasn't sure if this was the final member of a thousand-win streak team.
Despite our overwhelming familiarity with all of these pokemon (I have yet to read the "tons of Gliscor theorymon" in this thread someone posted about on like page 88 when I posted again, and I'm on page 66 myself, but evidently its utility and merits have been discussed at length), the strategy itself warrants a bit of explanation. And perhaps mainly because, as I said in my opening statements, this team is, for all intents and purposes, 1,182-0. It's still pretty simple, though. Let's see why.
Mega Kangaskhan is really good. We know that. It's been banned in competitive 1-on-1 play, and features mightily on the 2v2 landscape and our very own leaderboards. We know why it's good, too, but I'll briefly humor us anyway. We have a pokemon that is fast enough to eliminate many threats with its STAB, set up quickly and reliably, bulky enough to take a few hits, has great defensive typing, and strong, accurate coverage moves to go with its STAB and support sweeping. This is a great start, obviously. The Maison asks for more, though.
100 Base Speed is fast, but it's not blazing. Hence why Sucker Punch is a goddishsend for Kanga. Still boringly obvious, right? I hope so. The Maison, through Sturdy and Focus Sash, asks for more still. Parental Bond answers resoundingly, with the distinct, unmistakable echo that Kangaskhan's grown baby represents.
So great, Kangaskhan Explained, congratulations. Everybody already knows this. I basically just told you 15 minutes can save you 15% or more on car insurance. But think about it. Don't overcomplicate. What is missing? What, truly, is lacking from the great start Mega Kanga has gotten us?
You know what is missing. I actually mentioned it in passing in my theorymon. Kangaskhan is:
1) weak to Fighting
2) really doesn't like status that much (besides poison)
If I were reading this post I may feel a bit condescended to—I genuinely apologize if you feel you've mistakenly sat in on Remedial Pokémon. But this was precisely my thought process. "ok lead kanga is ridiculous what supports it, ok its weak to fighting and doesn't like status, what pokes handle that?"
Gliscor (with Toxic Orb and Poison Heal, obviously), can answer that basically by itself, as it occurred to me sifting through my boxes in a theorymon-induced trance. Since most fighters are physical (131 speed lead Lucario with Aura Sphere dies to EQ every time), the more I played the more I wasn't sure that the megaimpish spread even had to be altered. Stay with me on Simple Street, though, as I'm checking through my boxes to see what immediately can go with my Jolly Kanga and Impish Gliscor. What status can't Gliscor switch in on? Burn, obviously. And Cofagrigus4 is a very common user of WoW. What do you have that can handle that with relative easy?
Duh.
That's it. The Suicune already cozy in my Battle Box serendipitously completely covered Gliscor, which would end up mattering a little bit down the road against stubborn Boltbeamers Kanga didn't want to risk being statused by. Done. Theorymon over. Let's play.
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ok go Kangliscune
adamant may be better for barbaracle and tyranitar [both survived Mega EQ with Jolly, though Tyra does regardless]
also mega impish gliscor only takes 60-71% from licky explosion, which it seems to want to use on kanga
lol wouldn't it be just neat if focus sash greninja were a sufficient answer to..."contemplate". (cue pasted email to self) [what follows is literally an email i sent to myself when I was theorymonning at work, I titled it "contemplate". as you can see, i realized that I had unsolved my hurrrrrnadus problem by removing lead Greninja for Kanga, which would be kind of silly to not address after retiring a team for basically specifically that reason]
Really hate tornadus1, it does 97-114% with LO focus blast on megakanga and I can only do 58-69% with jolly sucker punch (adamant does 62.9-74.6%)
Return does 111% min if I could outspeed. [via icy wind through a hurricane miss on cune]
Does 30.2%-35.7% to gliscor with focus blast (152-179) [supposed to be exact hp stats but this is way off, whatever], 83-98% with hurricane
65-76.5% to cune with GK, scald does 33.1-39.6% (so enough if you sucker punch with kanga turn 1) [again, 58%, so dead after LO damage]
So maybe the question is: what ledges beat min 41% suicune if I “sac” kanga by using sucker punch then take a LO GK to kill with scald? Taunt virizion that’s for sure…or is it? Can it really taunt gliscor every third turn and do enough to megaimpish with leaf blade to win…jolly? More like surely not
lati@s can I guess, lati@s 2
sacing gliscor (switching into FB, protecting, then subbing I guess in case it misses) sucks when virizion comes out…though kanga can prob take one fighting attack
in the case of the above, if I switch gliscor in then protect, toxic, then “hope”, it means it’s at 100 - 10 - 10 - 10 - 37.25 = 32.25HP, which I can deal with. Plus its bitch ass may miss ever [what follows is a turn-by-turn theorymon account of Team Kangliscune vs Tornadus1, which for posterity is Timid with LO and Hurricane/Focus Blast/Dark Pulse/Extrasensory, with attention to LO/Toxic damage it would incur/take]
switch in gliscor/fb, -10
protect/hurrrr
hurrrrr/toxic, -10, -6.25
protect/hurrrrrr, -12.5
probs subs, yo but if I get hit it’s -10 and - 18.75 for a total of 67.5% hp gone
compared to you only having a like 33% chance of even having a chance at the min 41% suicune and 100% gliscor scenario (it can still ch cune with GK for kicks or use hurrrr for mega hurrrrr “why do I play this game”-dom) [ps, it did this, stupid pokemon lol] [the AI is stupid about grass knot for better or worse, as hurrrrrnadus never used it on 50% HP Suicune. the last comment indicates it actually aimed hurricane at Suicine in practice, making a switch back to Gliscor a bad idea]
last option is switching gliscor in, then switching in cune to hurricane and basically sacrificing it. It will be at 70% though like every time because it just hits gliscor (if you’re “lucky” rofl) [this underlines just how sick this thing is, I could be screwed out of a win if it misses gliscor with Focus Blast or whatever cause I need it to hit something four times to get it into Sucker Punch range] then cune with hurricane “probably” then def with gk which kills (I think it did 48% min with lo hurrrr which sounds about right)
way to forget you don’t get that poison heal damage immediately (good thing it didn’t matter though, well played) [i played a battle and saw that Gliscor would only get one turn of PH recovery, not two, duh]. It used hurricane on suicune because it’s the worst, missed the switch into gliscor, I may lose if it hits I guess? Prob a point for adamant kanga (would have loved rolling min damage with my sucker punch). I prob need more SpD for this exact reason. Super defense is *nice* against licky and taunt virizion and infernape
This is the battle referenced above, #272: BPKW-WWWW-WWW9-K77K. This battle had me change my Gliscor to Careful to give myself the best chance of beating Hurrrnadus.
236/4/196/0/68/4 Gliscor may be the most efficient (Impish) spread. Ape CC does 16.1-18.8% to this, 14.8-18.1% to megaimpish. 19.7-23.6% to 252HP/252SpD/4Spe 236HP/16Def Careful is other spread
Viriz Leaf Blade: 20.3-24.7% (36-42 HP)/22.2%-26.6% (40-48 HP)/28.3-33.3% (51-60 HP)
Licky Boom: 59.8-71.4% (109-130 HP)/63.3-75% (114-135 HP)/80-95% (144-171 HP)
Hurrrrrr: does 21.1-24.4% (38-44 HP) with LO FB (so 24.4%) to the Careful one (180HP/147Def/139SpD) . You’ll be at 158 HP min, then 9/16 times hurricane hits and doesn’t ch or confuse you’ll be able to sub (45HP Sub, lo hurr does 57.2-67.7%, 103-122 HP). A lot of ifs but you’re at 160 min with a megacareful gliscor, boosting your chances to 11/16 (so you can basically take the two instances that do 114 damage). Not sure that’s worth it, but all of this is indeed a thing.
Another thing is the efficient impish spread. This takes 49-58 HP damage from FB, so you’ll be at 122, then 144HP after PH. (man pH balance is a great nick). Only 4/16 times (when it hits but doesnt ch or confuse) will you be able to toxic it then start protect hoping
Salamence3 does 40-47% with dragon rush to pH Balance, 32.2-38.3% to the impish balance one. Outrage does 48.3-57.2% [example of a physical move I'd have to be more wary of, more follow]
236/4/196/0/68/4 Gliscor may be the most efficient (Impish) spread. Ape CC does 16.1-18.8% to this, 14.8-18.1% to megaimpish. 19.7-23.6% to 252HP/252SpD/4Spe 236HP/16Def Careful is other spread
Viriz Leaf Blade: 20.3-24.7% (36-42 HP)/22.2%-26.6% (40-48 HP)/28.3-33.3% (51-60 HP)
Licky Boom: 59.8-71.4% (109-130 HP)/63.3-75% (114-135 HP)/80-95% (144-171 HP)
I also realized that with a Careful Gliscor, I should probably use an Adamant Kanga that could ensure the KO on a 60% Tornadus (four LO hits), but that required theorymon too.
Jolly, or Adamantly? ["to be or not to be", awful huh]
Char 4 gets sucker punched anyway (AV). Same with Flygon 4 and Typhlosion. Foe kanga can’t sub forever, probable punching bag. Hydreigon4 sucks but can’t really beat gliscor, Zapdos 1, 3 and 4 are all timid (so points for adamant). Pyroar dies to +2 Sucker Punch no matter what. Krook takes 51.1-60.5% from +2 SP, but you’ll be intimidated sometimes. You take 43.8-52.2% from its eq (79-94HP). Point for jolly I guess, but gliscor destroys it
Remember when you got burned for coinflipping with ninetales when sucker punch ohkos (102% min, adamant)
Salamence: Adamant +2 SP does 103% min unintimidated, and you never win speed ties anyway so
Lead Arcanine already warrants a switch with intim and a faster priority move. Non-lead takes like 105% from +2 Adamant SP, 78-93% at +1. Again, meet gliscor.
Electivire can’t do a damn thing to you that it can’t if you’re Jolly (4-attack, SP does like 113% min or whatever, is faster than you pre-Mega to threaten TP par regardless of nature)
Houndoom: Adamant +2 SP does 82.6-98% to houndoom lol so close (not really). Point for jolly though, your team doesn’t like white herb sunny day houndoom one bit. What happens when gliscor isn’t subbed and you have to switch to either cune or kanga? It does 69.2-81.3% to 252/0 gliscor (you’re prob tweaking this but still) and can kinda be a dick in general. And you have to care if you’re at like 80HP because +2 SP doesn’t kill and it prob wont sunny day (and if it did and you used SP, good luck lol). Point for jolly. [though it only does 47-56% with OH to ph balance, meaning point for adamant? lol]
So I rebred both Gliscor and Kangaskhan, and this is the final result:
Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite ** Melbourne
Ability: Scrappy -> Parental Bond
EVs: 252Atk/4SpD/252Spe
Lv. 50 (Mega)stats: 180/194/120/72/120/152(142 pre-Mega)
Nature: Adamant
~ Return
~ Power-Up Punch
~ Sucker Punch
~ Earthquake
Suicune @ Leftovers ** Holy Water
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 196HP/252Def/60Spe
Lv. 50 stats: 200/78/183/110/135/113
Nature: Bold
~ Scald
~ Icy Wind
~ Calm Mind
~ Rest
Glisor (F) @ Toxic Orb ** pH Balance
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 236HP/4Atk/12Def/252Def/4Spe
Lv. 50 stats: 180/116/147/58/139/116
Nature: Careful
~ Earthquake
~ Toxic
~ Substitute
~ Protect
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Vids:
Here's a fun battle against some fun hax, #1051: P4BW-WWWW-WWW9-JEN4
Here is one aganist some REALLY fun stuff, #1,140: 3QRW-WWWW-WWW9-JEMU
And here is a fitting battle, #1,174, considering the last pokemon I faint: XZHG-WWWW-WWW9-JEZW
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To me, the most satisfying part is that this was done with a goodstuffs team. Sure, Kangaskhan is broken as hell. But truth be told—I've made my mark with "gimmicks" that were arguably more the product of tireless, clever theorymon than my prowess as a battler. This tested my playing ability, and I'm relieved to find I passed.
Kanga stunned me with how boring it made so many battles. Suicune was as steady and reliable as ever. And Gliscor completely surprised me. I never turned up my nose once in the early stages of my streak, but this team didn't exactly pass the smell test. At 1,182-0, I think it's fair to say the Maison may have its finest cologne.
