Aww. C'mon Game Freak. First event moves and now non-XY-bred egg moves:(
Edit: Oh. Hmm. I wonder. I have a couple mons I'll be transferring over that have egg moves so I'll be sure to test that.
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Battle Maison Discussion & Records
- Thread starter NoCheese
- Start date
Edit: Oh. Hmm. I wonder. I have a couple mons I'll be transferring over that have egg moves so I'll be sure to test that.
Just tried it with my Weavile's Ice Punch and it couldn't relearn it; unfortunately I honestly don't remember if it was an egg move in the first place .-.
however, I also tried it with a Hyper Voice Ralts I have somewhere in my boxes that accidentally inherited Shadow Ball when I bred it on SoulSilver, and it couldn't relearn Shadow Ball. Considering XY considers any move the pokemon knew upon hatching to be an egg move, it should have been able to remember it. (My Mamoswine can relearn Icy Wind even though it isn't in its level up movepool, apparently I was breeding two ~lvl20 Swinub that both knew Icy Wind at some point.) Unfortunately I don't have anything transferred lying around with an egg move in the narrow sense, so I can't give a really conclusive answer, but as shown by my Ralts the game doesn't remember where exactly a transferred pokemon learned its moves, so I think it's not gonna work with old egg moves :\ i'll hopefully be transferring a Wish Umbreon shortly so that would have been a better test, but as of now he's still on my copy of White 2.
Yeah, I tested that with my Drain Punch Conkeldurr and I can confirm that transferred pokemon can't relearn egg moves:/
As annoying as that is, I did sort of suspect that to be the case.
That makes Pokemon that need past-gen tutor moves a lot less flexible. Unfortunate.
Understandable, though, with the variety of new mechanics this gen.
Is there anyone who can help with the basic rules of thumb for held items. Obviously items like Light Clay go toward Dual Screeners and Weather Rocks go to Weather Setters, but can someone please expand upon the slightly more 'popular' items to see if I'm missing something or if I have something incorrect.
Choice Band - Physical Sweepers, Priority users, Locked-in users (Outrage/Thrash)
Choice Specs - Special Sweepers, Drawback users (Overheat/Draco Meteor/Leaf Storm)
Choice Scarf - Strong Pokémon but with decent speed (78-99 Base Speed), Fast Pokémon to ensure a Revenge Kill or Trick/Switcheroo Cripple
Assault Vest - Tanks possibly with Giga Drain/Drain Punch/Regenerator, Non-setup Sweepers with an exploitable Sp. Def
Life Orb - Mixed Sweepers, Pokémon in general that don't enjoy being locked into moves, Frail Sweepers that don't care about losing bits of HP
Leftovers - Stall Pokémon, Filler item to avoid breaking the Item Clause
Rocky Helmet - Physical Walls with low offensive stats, Rough Skin/Iron Barb Pokémon
Expert Belt - Offensive Pokémon that focus on good coverage
Weakness Policy - Fairly fast Pokémon that can survive a Super Effective attack, Baton Passers, Unburden/Acrobatics Pokémon
Air Balloon - Pretty much just Heatran and Excadrill
I'm wondering if it is worth running slightly weaker offensive items over the Choice items such as the Muscle Band or Black Glasses. Flexibility is nice, but do Choice items really help secure a decent majority of KO's when it comes to the Maison? Also, I'm trying to avoid somewhat obvious picks for my Singles run; Mega Khan, Greninja, Dragonite, Aegislash, most of the Non-mascot Legendaries. Any suggestions?
Choice Band - Physical Sweepers, Priority users, Locked-in users (Outrage/Thrash)
Choice Specs - Special Sweepers, Drawback users (Overheat/Draco Meteor/Leaf Storm)
Choice Scarf - Strong Pokémon but with decent speed (78-99 Base Speed), Fast Pokémon to ensure a Revenge Kill or Trick/Switcheroo Cripple
Assault Vest - Tanks possibly with Giga Drain/Drain Punch/Regenerator, Non-setup Sweepers with an exploitable Sp. Def
Life Orb - Mixed Sweepers, Pokémon in general that don't enjoy being locked into moves, Frail Sweepers that don't care about losing bits of HP
Leftovers - Stall Pokémon, Filler item to avoid breaking the Item Clause
Rocky Helmet - Physical Walls with low offensive stats, Rough Skin/Iron Barb Pokémon
Expert Belt - Offensive Pokémon that focus on good coverage
Weakness Policy - Fairly fast Pokémon that can survive a Super Effective attack, Baton Passers, Unburden/Acrobatics Pokémon
Air Balloon - Pretty much just Heatran and Excadrill
I'm wondering if it is worth running slightly weaker offensive items over the Choice items such as the Muscle Band or Black Glasses. Flexibility is nice, but do Choice items really help secure a decent majority of KO's when it comes to the Maison? Also, I'm trying to avoid somewhat obvious picks for my Singles run; Mega Khan, Greninja, Dragonite, Aegislash, most of the Non-mascot Legendaries. Any suggestions?
Your summary is mostly fine, but a few points.
First, you're playing for consistently repeatable outcomes over hundreds of battles, so trying to get too cute with your item is almost always a bad idea. A well designed team should win in the good and neutral states of the world, and wants resiliency in the bad state, when low probability die rolls go against you. This is why more "creative" items are not normally successful in the Maison. A classic example is Weakness Policy, which you mention as an option, but is not normally a good choice. While it can do amazing things if lots of variables line up just right, over the course of many battles, you'll want something more consistent. In many battles it won't do anything, and if an untimely crit KOs you, your whole plan may be ruined. If you need Weakness Policy triggering to keep your streak alive, your team is probably misbuilt.
As far as damage boosting items are concerned, yes, the difference between a 50% boost from a Choice item and the 20% boost from a type booster is huge, and you can definitely lose important KOs. Life Orb (or a defensive item like Lum Berry) is best for a sweeper who needs to be able to switch moves, while your typical all out attacker will do better with a Choice item. There are occasional exceptions. If you have a Pokemon who strongly prefers one damaging move, but whose utility absolutely depends on being able to provide support, then a type boosting item may be correct. The only ready example I have off the top of my head is doubles and triples Talonflame, who usually wants to be able to set Tailwind on the first turn of battle, but after that substantially favors Brave Bird over its other attacking options like Flare Blitz. For Talonflame, Sharp Beak is great item.
A few items you don't mention:
Lum Berry: Wonderful on things like boosting sweepers, especially bulky ones that are more afraid of status than a OHKO, since it can help ensure you get a boost in. Particularly nice on Pokemon with Outrage since if not needed when setting up, can undo Outrage-induced confusion.
Chesto Berry: Great for bulky Rest Pokemon. While some prefer Leftovers, the "free" first Rest can be huge in allowing something like Suicune to stall out its foe's most dangerous move and then complete a Calm Mind set-up.
Focus Sash: Since entry hazards are MUCH less common in the Maison than in competitive battles against other players, it's much easier to keep your sash intact, and the insurance policy it provides can be very valuable for all sorts of frail Pokemon.
Absorb Bulb: A niche item, but it can be helpful on doubles rain teams, since it lets Lucicolo boost its Special Attack from its partner's Surf.
Wide Lens: Wide Lens is great for Pokemon who need to patch up iffy accuracy on a move they use regularly. Inaccurate attacks are your enemy in the Maison, as over a long streak you'll have some very untimely misses, and Wide Lens can help fix this. Notable users are Azumarill, who hates Play Rough misses, and Terrakion, who appreciates a more accurate Rock Slide. Note that the item is best with moves that are 90% accurate or better; with a 90% accurate move, you'll go up to 99% accuracy, while with something horrid like Focus Blast, the accuracy improvement will still leave you missing way too much. Wide Lens also provides a small bit of protection from things like Bright Powder, Lax Incense, and Double Team.
But to make a long story short, don't try to be too fancy with items in the Maison. Straightforward/obvious and consistent choices will almost always serve you best.
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In X/Y I am fairly sure that there is a separate flag set for moves learned via egg to other methods and that is why you can't relearn moves on transferred Pokes. It doesn't matter whether it was move tutored or egg'd in a previous generation you will not be able to relearn it as the flag has not been set having not existed in Generation 5. I learnt this the same way, in my current team I am using MegaGarchomp for Triples, where in BW I used him in online Singles, therefore replacing Outrage with Dragon Claw for the ability to choose who I attack (as in Triples it randomly selects a target).
In my opinion Weakness Policy shines on tanks with priority. By investing in bulk over speed, you can assure you take a SE hit and can essentially get two boosted attacks in. If you are expecting a SE hit use a non priority move and get outsped, let them activate WP and hit hard. Then finish with the priority. Or you can catch it on the switch and revenge kill with the priority etc. I think it opens up the diversity more than trying to run a speedy bulky pokemon with reduced offensive investment. I'm currently using it on Aegislash who can take anything in Shield Form (sometimes activating myself through EQ in Triples) who can go Sacred Sword + Shadow Sneak.
Have you considered trying to improve on the concepts in some of those teams? Mostly I see a lot of bulky pokemon, with something like a dragon sweeper, a wall/defensive pivot (possibly with boosting moves) and then Mega coverage. I think something like Mega Gyarados, Ferrothorn + third could be really good as Ferrothorn is only weak to Fire and Fighting both of which Gyarados resists (before Mega) plus sorting of filling the archetype for the top teams. I'm just theorycrafting here though.
In my opinion Weakness Policy shines on tanks with priority. By investing in bulk over speed, you can assure you take a SE hit and can essentially get two boosted attacks in. If you are expecting a SE hit use a non priority move and get outsped, let them activate WP and hit hard. Then finish with the priority. Or you can catch it on the switch and revenge kill with the priority etc. I think it opens up the diversity more than trying to run a speedy bulky pokemon with reduced offensive investment. I'm currently using it on Aegislash who can take anything in Shield Form (sometimes activating myself through EQ in Triples) who can go Sacred Sword + Shadow Sneak.
Have you considered trying to improve on the concepts in some of those teams? Mostly I see a lot of bulky pokemon, with something like a dragon sweeper, a wall/defensive pivot (possibly with boosting moves) and then Mega coverage. I think something like Mega Gyarados, Ferrothorn + third could be really good as Ferrothorn is only weak to Fire and Fighting both of which Gyarados resists (before Mega) plus sorting of filling the archetype for the top teams. I'm just theorycrafting here though.
Posting a 54 win streak in Super Multi with AI. Mediocre and can probably be improved, but I'm a little tired of this format right now, mainly because of the way I lost.
I felt quitting the maison with two decent unfinished streaks would be kind of a waste, so I continued my multi streak to see if I could get any further. Naturally, I lost immediately at 51 :D I got steamrolled by a Scarf Pinsir who suddenly managed to hit two guillotines in a row. I found this pretty stupid (not really the way I lost, OHKOs happen, more the fact that I literally lost at 51), so I decided to try again, and this time without Mega Aerodactyl, to see if I would have won the trophy as well if I would have had to figure out myself which Pokemon to use (naturally I continued using Haunter's AI partner as that's the only good one I've got).
I lost in the single most stupid way possible lol. The opponents led off with Gyarados (Moxie, bulky DD) and Vespiquen, so I knew Charizard was gonna lock himself into Rock Slide, and I clicked Rock Slide also, in order to take down that annoying Vespiquen and fish for a flinch on that Gyarados. Both Rock Slides missed Vespiquen; Gyarados didn't flinch, set up a DD, but was still brought into KO range, but Vespiquen naturally used Confuse Ray on Garchomp. The next turn, Charizard's Rock Slide killed Gyarados, but Garchomp hit itself in confusion. Out came Glaceon. Well, shit. I figured I'd just try Rock Slide again, that would kill Vespiquen and had a good chance of at least flinching Glaceon, in tandem with Charizard's Rock Slide. However, Garchomp hit itself again and was obliterated by Blizzard. Oh well, Gyarados can probably take them. I figured I can set up a DD, considering they can't KO me and I'm gonna need the power to muscle through them. So I set up a DD, Glaceon uses Blizzard again, killing Charizard and... freezing Gyarados. Out comes Raikou. I blindly click Waterfall for Glaceon, hoping I was gonna thaw immediately (I didn't). At least Raikou could have killed Vespiquen, but it used... Protect, as Glaceon and Vespiquen took down Gyarados. It's most definitely over right now. The next turn, Raikou realises the error of his ways and kills Vespiquen, only to be hit by Glaceon's Blizzard and... get frozen. It honestly didn't matter anymore at this point, but it was kinda typical. Out came Dragonite, who defeated Raikou with Extremespeed as it vainly tried to Protect. I still don't believe in (programmed) hax because I've played plenty of battles to the contrary (in fact, afaik this was the first absurd battle I've played in the maison, and I still have played a fair amount), but this was a really, really bitter loss because there was nothing I could have done better and I probably would have won if the RNG hadn't gone my opponents' way on only one of these occasions. I know myself and I probably am stupid enough to eventually try improving this streak (considering what was required to stop me, I've got no reason to assume the team couldn't go a little further), but right now I'm a little tired of this format, and first I still have to lose in singles anyway.
Apart from this loss, I still kinda like this team as far as AI multi goes. I'm confident to say I've been given a really nifty partner and I could use some pretty cool and reliable mons myself. Also, a team with three dragons is always pretty damn badass, and Raikou is not exactly lame himself.
Will chime in again once I've wrapped up my last piece of unfinished business (i.e. singles. I don't exactly like my team there, plus it is really poorly built, but apparently it still works).
I felt quitting the maison with two decent unfinished streaks would be kind of a waste, so I continued my multi streak to see if I could get any further. Naturally, I lost immediately at 51 :D I got steamrolled by a Scarf Pinsir who suddenly managed to hit two guillotines in a row. I found this pretty stupid (not really the way I lost, OHKOs happen, more the fact that I literally lost at 51), so I decided to try again, and this time without Mega Aerodactyl, to see if I would have won the trophy as well if I would have had to figure out myself which Pokemon to use (naturally I continued using Haunter's AI partner as that's the only good one I've got).
my lead
Garchomp @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
Nature: Jolly
IVs: 31/31/19/19/31/31
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
-Earthquake
-Dragon Claw
-Rock Slide
-Protect
my backup
Nemo (Gyarados) @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate -> Mold Breaker
Nature: Adamant
IVs: 31/31/31/X/31/31 (well actually one defensive IV is missing but I forgot to check and my 3DS is turned off rn, will correct whenever)
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
-Waterfall
-Earthquake
-Ice Fang
-Dragon Dance
AI lead:
Charizard @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Blaze
Nature: Mild (assuming it's the AI's Charizard3)
IVs: 31/31/31/31/31/31 I guess
EVs: 170 Atk / 170 SpA / 170 Spe (again, assuming it's Charizard3)
-Heat Wave
-Air Slash
-Rock Slide
-Crunch
AI backup:
Raikou @ Air Balloon
Ability: Pressure
Nature: Timid (assuming it's Raikou3)
IVs: 31/31/31/31/31/31 I guess
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe (assuming Raikou3)
-Thunderbolt
-Shadow Ball
-Volt Switch (lol useless for a backup)
-Protect
Garchomp was still a no-brainer for Earthquake spam and breaking down opponents early-game. For my backup, I wanted a hard-hitting mega that was not weak to ice and difficult to take down, and then it dawned to me: Mega Gyarados. Stupid attacking power and stupid bulk bolstered by Intimidate, only a little slow but that could be remedied by Dragon Dance. I'm naturally very cautious about using setup moves in Doubles, but considering Gyarados's bulk and his juggling with defensive typings I figured he could pull it off. I needed a little practice to learn to only set up if it was really, really safe (this streak was my second attempt with Gyarados, I lost a previous one in the early 20s because I set up on an Eelektross. I would have survived its attack, but I was double targeted, so ya.) As for its moveset: Waterfall, (Mold Breaker) Earthquake, and Dragon Dance are mandatory; the last slot was a tossup between Ice Fang, Return, and Protect. I didn't have room for Protect because I needed something to hit Grass-types and flying Dragons, and considering I would be using the move in this slot solely for these opponents, I saw no reason to choose Return over Ice Fang.
My partners are pretty alright. Charizard's Scarf eases prediction massively, and it usually locks itself into Heat Wave. Occasionally it chooses a different move, but Air Slash and Crunch still work out pretty well at that very moment (also considering he usually chooses Crunch against Psychics/Hex Maniacs :p); however, you're gonna have a bad time if he picks Rock Slide, because it's extremely weak, not to mention Heat Wave would still have been better in most of these situations in terms of raw damage output. As far as AI partners go, I think Charizard is one of the more reliable ones. Raikou is a little worse, he uses Protect on completely random occasions, and can and will use it even if it means the death of his partner >.> he also tends to steal kills from his partner, but that's something all AI partners do as far as I've heard. However, he hits pretty hard and knows his type chart, so he's still pretty usable.
Garchomp @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
Nature: Jolly
IVs: 31/31/19/19/31/31
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
-Earthquake
-Dragon Claw
-Rock Slide
-Protect
my backup
Nemo (Gyarados) @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate -> Mold Breaker
Nature: Adamant
IVs: 31/31/31/X/31/31 (well actually one defensive IV is missing but I forgot to check and my 3DS is turned off rn, will correct whenever)
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
-Waterfall
-Earthquake
-Ice Fang
-Dragon Dance
AI lead:
Charizard @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Blaze
Nature: Mild (assuming it's the AI's Charizard3)
IVs: 31/31/31/31/31/31 I guess
EVs: 170 Atk / 170 SpA / 170 Spe (again, assuming it's Charizard3)
-Heat Wave
-Air Slash
-Rock Slide
-Crunch
AI backup:
Raikou @ Air Balloon
Ability: Pressure
Nature: Timid (assuming it's Raikou3)
IVs: 31/31/31/31/31/31 I guess
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe (assuming Raikou3)
-Thunderbolt
-Shadow Ball
-Volt Switch (lol useless for a backup)
-Protect
Garchomp was still a no-brainer for Earthquake spam and breaking down opponents early-game. For my backup, I wanted a hard-hitting mega that was not weak to ice and difficult to take down, and then it dawned to me: Mega Gyarados. Stupid attacking power and stupid bulk bolstered by Intimidate, only a little slow but that could be remedied by Dragon Dance. I'm naturally very cautious about using setup moves in Doubles, but considering Gyarados's bulk and his juggling with defensive typings I figured he could pull it off. I needed a little practice to learn to only set up if it was really, really safe (this streak was my second attempt with Gyarados, I lost a previous one in the early 20s because I set up on an Eelektross. I would have survived its attack, but I was double targeted, so ya.) As for its moveset: Waterfall, (Mold Breaker) Earthquake, and Dragon Dance are mandatory; the last slot was a tossup between Ice Fang, Return, and Protect. I didn't have room for Protect because I needed something to hit Grass-types and flying Dragons, and considering I would be using the move in this slot solely for these opponents, I saw no reason to choose Return over Ice Fang.
My partners are pretty alright. Charizard's Scarf eases prediction massively, and it usually locks itself into Heat Wave. Occasionally it chooses a different move, but Air Slash and Crunch still work out pretty well at that very moment (also considering he usually chooses Crunch against Psychics/Hex Maniacs :p); however, you're gonna have a bad time if he picks Rock Slide, because it's extremely weak, not to mention Heat Wave would still have been better in most of these situations in terms of raw damage output. As far as AI partners go, I think Charizard is one of the more reliable ones. Raikou is a little worse, he uses Protect on completely random occasions, and can and will use it even if it means the death of his partner >.> he also tends to steal kills from his partner, but that's something all AI partners do as far as I've heard. However, he hits pretty hard and knows his type chart, so he's still pretty usable.
I lost in the single most stupid way possible lol. The opponents led off with Gyarados (Moxie, bulky DD) and Vespiquen, so I knew Charizard was gonna lock himself into Rock Slide, and I clicked Rock Slide also, in order to take down that annoying Vespiquen and fish for a flinch on that Gyarados. Both Rock Slides missed Vespiquen; Gyarados didn't flinch, set up a DD, but was still brought into KO range, but Vespiquen naturally used Confuse Ray on Garchomp. The next turn, Charizard's Rock Slide killed Gyarados, but Garchomp hit itself in confusion. Out came Glaceon. Well, shit. I figured I'd just try Rock Slide again, that would kill Vespiquen and had a good chance of at least flinching Glaceon, in tandem with Charizard's Rock Slide. However, Garchomp hit itself again and was obliterated by Blizzard. Oh well, Gyarados can probably take them. I figured I can set up a DD, considering they can't KO me and I'm gonna need the power to muscle through them. So I set up a DD, Glaceon uses Blizzard again, killing Charizard and... freezing Gyarados. Out comes Raikou. I blindly click Waterfall for Glaceon, hoping I was gonna thaw immediately (I didn't). At least Raikou could have killed Vespiquen, but it used... Protect, as Glaceon and Vespiquen took down Gyarados. It's most definitely over right now. The next turn, Raikou realises the error of his ways and kills Vespiquen, only to be hit by Glaceon's Blizzard and... get frozen. It honestly didn't matter anymore at this point, but it was kinda typical. Out came Dragonite, who defeated Raikou with Extremespeed as it vainly tried to Protect. I still don't believe in (programmed) hax because I've played plenty of battles to the contrary (in fact, afaik this was the first absurd battle I've played in the maison, and I still have played a fair amount), but this was a really, really bitter loss because there was nothing I could have done better and I probably would have won if the RNG hadn't gone my opponents' way on only one of these occasions. I know myself and I probably am stupid enough to eventually try improving this streak (considering what was required to stop me, I've got no reason to assume the team couldn't go a little further), but right now I'm a little tired of this format, and first I still have to lose in singles anyway.
Apart from this loss, I still kinda like this team as far as AI multi goes. I'm confident to say I've been given a really nifty partner and I could use some pretty cool and reliable mons myself. Also, a team with three dragons is always pretty damn badass, and Raikou is not exactly lame himself.
50: N8RG-WWWW-WWW9-36PQ, chatelaine battle again
55: 4GJW-WWWW-WWW9-36PK theabomination loss. Once in a lifetime (I hope lol), but not exactly in a good way.
55: 4GJW-WWWW-WWW9-36PK the
Will chime in again once I've wrapped up my last piece of unfinished business (i.e. singles. I don't exactly like my team there, plus it is really poorly built, but apparently it still works).
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Finally beat the super multi battles with my RL friend Derni
Video: XNGG-WWWW-WWW9-3CLU
Team (pretty self-explainatory):
Also, got all the trophies :)
Proof:
Video: XNGG-WWWW-WWW9-3CLU
Team (pretty self-explainatory):
Typhlosion @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
- Solar Beam
Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Heat Wave
- Air Slash
- SolarBeam
Kangaskhan-Mega (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Parental Bond
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Protect
- Return
- Sucker Punch
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Rock Slide
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
- Solar Beam
Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Heat Wave
- Air Slash
- SolarBeam
Kangaskhan-Mega (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Parental Bond
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Protect
- Return
- Sucker Punch
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Rock Slide
Also, got all the trophies :)
Proof:
So, I've been trying to use turskain's doubles team (Mega Lucario, Greninja, Garchomp, Talonflame) but I can attest that copying a team isn't enough to be good with the team (Aerodactyl and Choice Scarf seems to screw me a lot when I try it, seems I hardly ever get Mat Block to work).
So I'm going all original (well, for this thread). My idea is to use telepathy Musharna as a trick room setter, with helping hand, imprison, and some coverage move (Dazzling Gleam or Physhock probably) combined with Aron as... aron.
The goal is to use Musharna's unique abilities in comparison to other trick room setters (Cresslia, Aromatisse, Dusclops), that is Telepathy to spam surf, earthquake, and discharge and Imprison to stop opponent trick rooms (or stop them from resetting my own).
I could use some suggestions on who to take advantage of this. I'm thinking Rhypherior with Rotom-Wash but I'm not 100% sure (and a little shaky on making a team so dependent on trick room, plus no mega too).
Anyway, and ideas while I breed a Musharna?
So I'm going all original (well, for this thread). My idea is to use telepathy Musharna as a trick room setter, with helping hand, imprison, and some coverage move (Dazzling Gleam or Physhock probably) combined with Aron as... aron.
The goal is to use Musharna's unique abilities in comparison to other trick room setters (Cresslia, Aromatisse, Dusclops), that is Telepathy to spam surf, earthquake, and discharge and Imprison to stop opponent trick rooms (or stop them from resetting my own).
I could use some suggestions on who to take advantage of this. I'm thinking Rhypherior with Rotom-Wash but I'm not 100% sure (and a little shaky on making a team so dependent on trick room, plus no mega too).
Anyway, and ideas while I breed a Musharna?
Mega Ampharos is fantastic in Trick Room in my experience; bulky, very powerful, gives the finger to Volt Absorb and Lightningrod (thanks to Mold Breaker) and achieves great coverage between its STABs alone. Really, imo, a criminally underrated mega. That, and Rotom-W's Discharge simply just doesn't hit that hard (I've used him a lot), and he's slightly fast by TR standards.
If you're going to take advantage of Telepathy, I would run a powerful Surf user perhaps instead of Rhyperior- much fewer glaring weaknesses and is less screwed outside of Trick Room (Telepathy's main draw over Cress's Levitate is Surf/Discharge immunity anyway). In fact, off the top of my head, a team of Surf user+Mega Ampharos+Gastrodon seems to have pretty decent synergy. In fact, even Politoed might work as its Surf (or even Wide Lens Muddy Water) is actually pretty strong thanks to Rain and it would allow Gastrodon a stronger Surf and Mega Ampharos to use Thunder for when Wide Guard users ruin your day or for when Discharge isn't safe (i.e. when Politoed is out). The team won't be completely reliant on Rain like it is TR, but it will also benefit greatly when it is up.
In such a team, I would probably run Mental Herb on Musharna as, like you mentioned, you are pretty heavily dependent on Trick Room going up. The great thing about a team like that though is that you are able to invest a lot into bulk (Mega Ampharos has lived 2 spread Blizzards for me a couple times) so you'll probably get another chance to get Trick Room up while your partner attacks.
Hope that helps:)
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Since this isn't an online server, I'm using Musharna because I can get 31 IV's onto it somewhat easily. Cresselia is nigh impossible to do that legitimately, which I want to stick to. So using Musharna to function like Cresselia and dodge ally earthquakes is still it's asset.
Still, I hadn't thought of Gastrodon before.
Still, I hadn't thought of Gastrodon before.
Even with imperfect IVs, Cresselia is still miles better than Musharna if you're using Earthquake, so you really should make use of Musharna's unique Surf/Discharge immunities.
And yes, Gastrodon is amazing. With a partner's Surf it can become very dangerous very quickly thanks to Storm Drain. Earth Power+Ice Beam also forms excellent coverage and it's one weakness, Grass, is very easy to cover (in fact, the aforementioned Mega Ampharos resists that for you).
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Just to back up what AegisCave said, even with IVs of 0 in it's defensive stats, Cresselia is still bulkier than Musharna. If you have access to Black/White 2 you can soft reset for one with half decent IVs which would be miles ahead of a Musharna in that regard, it also has a a somewhat better movepool. However in Musharna's defence, it can maintain an offensive presence once it sets up Trick Room with it's better special attack, and it's really poor speed will work better under Trick Room as well. So it's really up to how you want to play them, if you're just going to use Musharna as a mini-Cres then it's not worth it, you may as well just settle on an imperfect Cresselia. If you are going to use Musharna you may as well utilise what it has over Cresselia, and those things are Telepathy over Levitate, better special attack and much lower speed
Surf is still by far your best option as far as Telepathy-abusable spread moves go though; Surf is immune'd by much fewer pokemon, is strengthen-able by Rain (and Storm Drain), and is usable by pokemon with much better defensive (and arguably offensive) typing. There are even a couple Water-type TR setters if you really need a backup setter.
So guys I am really terrible at the Maison... I can't even make it to a 50 streak on the Super Singles (best atm is 42 I think).
I know I need to tweak my Talonflames EV's a little, but I think I need to change my Kangas moveset and maybe try yet another third... I'm mostly struggling with strong rock types and certain ghosts.
So at the moment I have these two:
Talonflame @ Choice Band
31/31/31/x/31/31
Same EVs as above (Should probably move to 252hp/252 atk as I mostly use Brave Bird)
Gale Wings
-Brave Bird
-Flare Blitz
-U Turn
-Roost (Because why not lol)
Kangaskhan @ Kangaskhanite
31/31/31/x/31/31
252 attack / 252 speed / 4hp
Scrappy -> Parental Bond
-Sucker Punch
-Power Up Punch
-Return
-Fake out
This has left me wanting vs several Pokemon, would I be better flipping from Sucker Punch to Crunch or dropping fake out?
I've tried two things for my third at the moment, one being a Noivern (which honestly wasn't good) and the other being an Assault Vest Hariyama. I'm wanting to try something a little different to get to 50 rather than the same cookie cutter things as everyone else.
Hariyama @ Assault Vest
31/31/31/x/31/31
252atk/252def/4hp
Guts
-Knock Off
-Close Combat
-Bullet Punch
-Rock Slide
My last streak ended with a stall Golurk which I couldnt kill cause it was 1v1 vs megamum and it wouldnt attack me >_> Which is why I might move to Crunch over one of the other moves. However, Fake Out -> Sucker Punch has saved me a few times against things like Slaking.
Any help would be appreciated, but I don't really have access to things like Ice Punch Conk and stuff, so don't suggest those.
EDIT: I was using Talonflame to lead, not Kanga... D: Does this change any of the advice given?
I know I need to tweak my Talonflames EV's a little, but I think I need to change my Kangas moveset and maybe try yet another third... I'm mostly struggling with strong rock types and certain ghosts.
So at the moment I have these two:
Talonflame @ Choice Band
31/31/31/x/31/31
Same EVs as above (Should probably move to 252hp/252 atk as I mostly use Brave Bird)
Gale Wings
-Brave Bird
-Flare Blitz
-U Turn
-Roost (Because why not lol)
Kangaskhan @ Kangaskhanite
31/31/31/x/31/31
252 attack / 252 speed / 4hp
Scrappy -> Parental Bond
-Sucker Punch
-Power Up Punch
-Return
-Fake out
This has left me wanting vs several Pokemon, would I be better flipping from Sucker Punch to Crunch or dropping fake out?
I've tried two things for my third at the moment, one being a Noivern (which honestly wasn't good) and the other being an Assault Vest Hariyama. I'm wanting to try something a little different to get to 50 rather than the same cookie cutter things as everyone else.
Hariyama @ Assault Vest
31/31/31/x/31/31
252atk/252def/4hp
Guts
-Knock Off
-Close Combat
-Bullet Punch
-Rock Slide
My last streak ended with a stall Golurk which I couldnt kill cause it was 1v1 vs megamum and it wouldnt attack me >_> Which is why I might move to Crunch over one of the other moves. However, Fake Out -> Sucker Punch has saved me a few times against things like Slaking.
Any help would be appreciated, but I don't really have access to things like Ice Punch Conk and stuff, so don't suggest those.
EDIT: I was using Talonflame to lead, not Kanga... D: Does this change any of the advice given?
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Couple of recommendations:
-On Khan, Earthquake > Fake Out. Right now your moveset has only two moves that are meant for dealing damage/sweeping, of which Return is the only really reliable one; that's simply too few. As you've noticed yourself, this puts you at a disadvantage against Rock- and Steel-types and passive ghosts. Crunch is also a valid option for coverage against these (which would have to go over Fake Out, not over Sucker Punch btw; Sucker Punch is basically mandatory if Khan is your main sweeper, otherwise you'll lose against almost every faster opponent, which are still a lot, whereas you can simply OHKO them with a +2 SP), but I personally prefer Earthquake. I'm on a decently long run myself (250 atm) with Khan as my main sweeper, and there were simply a lot more moments where I thought 'man I'm glad I have EQ' than where I thought 'man I wish I had Crunch'. The only opponents where using Earthquake would force you into Sucker Punching them are Gengar, Mismagius, and Drifblim (possibly Trevenant and Gourgeist too). Gengar isn't really a problem because you encounter the annoying Hypnosis one only really early, further in your streak you usually run into an all-out attacker; Drifblim is usually fine too, only Mismagius can be annoying. On the other hand, Earthquake is extremely useful for getting unboosted OHKOs on obnoxiously strong opposing leads you can't afford to set up on or switch out of, such as CB Tyrantrum (which you'll need Adamant for btw, you didn't list your natures) or on possible Will-O-Wisp/Thunder Wave leads.
-On Talonflame, Tailwind > Roost. As you've noticed, it's a completely filler move that you most likely won't use more than once every 100 battles, but in that unlikely case, Tailwind is much more useful (as a suicide move) than a Choice-locked Roost. As for the EVs, try using the fastest mon you need Flare Blitz for as your benchmark (iirc, you need somewhere around 90 for max speed Excadrill, but you'll need to look into that yourself)
-As for your final mon, I recommend using a Ghost-type, or at least something that resists Fighting, because you'll have to switch Khan out of strong Fighting-moves (e.g. Slaking's Hammer Arm :p) and you need something that can take them.
Hope this helps
With respect to Kanga as a lead, I really like a set of Power-Up Punch / Return / Crunch / Sucker Punch. Against a huge variety of foes, you can PuP on the first turn and merrily sweep after that. Even without Earthquake, you can often muscle through Steel types with PuP, and because of the threat of status-using Ghost-types, I don't like relying on Sucker Punch alone. If you use Kanga as a second or third Pokemon cleaner, that's when Fake Out really shines.
Kanga's biggest problem tends to be with fast, hard hitting Fighting-types, and I'm a bit nervous as to whether Talonflame is bulky enough to switch into all of them. For your third Poke, I'd normally recommend the standard Dragonite or Aegislash, but understand that you want something a little different. Toxic stalling Gliscor, maybe?
In any case, best of luck with your streak!!
EDIT: Upon further reflection, I should add that Terrakion is public enemy number one for lead Kanga, so you will really want to have a plan for beating it. Latios isn't actually a bad fit, as though Terrakion can still hit it hard with neutral Rock-type moves, Latios outspeeds all variants but the scarfed one, and that will lock into Sacred Sword if it comes in against Kanga.
Kanga's biggest problem tends to be with fast, hard hitting Fighting-types, and I'm a bit nervous as to whether Talonflame is bulky enough to switch into all of them. For your third Poke, I'd normally recommend the standard Dragonite or Aegislash, but understand that you want something a little different. Toxic stalling Gliscor, maybe?
In any case, best of luck with your streak!!
EDIT: Upon further reflection, I should add that Terrakion is public enemy number one for lead Kanga, so you will really want to have a plan for beating it. Latios isn't actually a bad fit, as though Terrakion can still hit it hard with neutral Rock-type moves, Latios outspeeds all variants but the scarfed one, and that will lock into Sacred Sword if it comes in against Kanga.
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Sorry for the misinformation, I am currently using Talonflame as a lead. Also: Please do not suggest Lati@s because I don't have the ability to RNG/Sav/Get them good enough to even use. Some people are not lucky enough to have mons like that. Thats why my pool is largely bred mons. I can get hold of pretty much anything that can breed one way or another. Gliscor is an interesting shout though, but is its natural bulk enough to cover the rock weakness I have in tandem with teaching kanga EQ?
My main problem with Crunch is that it doesn't really help out against status ghosts when unboosted; all of them either outspeed and status Khan anyway (e.g. Gengar) or are not OHKOed (e.g. Dusknoir, Cofagrigus). The only one Crunch really gains is Drifblim, which is 2HKOed by base forme Khan's Return anyway. Also, I should have added this in my first post, but whenever I was up against a possible Flame Body/Static mon, I was really glad I had a non-contact move to pick :) not to mention you really don't want to use Crunch against Cofagrigus for obvious reasons.
It's your decision, however, and Crunch certainly has its merits.
If you're not using Khan as a lead, I can't be of that much help because I only have experience with her in the lead position. Judging by others' teams, however, the preferred moveset for non-lead Khan is Return / Sucker Punch / Earthquake or Crunch (up to preference) / PuP or Fake Out (PuP for a strong sweeper, Fake Out for a cleaner). As for Gliscor, in theory that should be fine (and that thing always seems to be much better in practice than in theory), but requires you to run Earthquake on Khan for dealing with Tyrantrum, assuming you're keeping Talon.
Edit: afaik, the only non-supereffective attack that OHKOes Khan is Specs Lati@s Draco Meteor. Probably some other ones too, but then I haven't taken those to the face. Use that knowledge how you see fit ;)
edit again: also Tyrantrum's Head Smash, Refrigerate Aurorus's Hyper Beam and Lickilicky's Explosion, but those are pretty much the strongest attacks in the entire maison and the first two can't exactly come in on Khan :)
It's your decision, however, and Crunch certainly has its merits.
If you're not using Khan as a lead, I can't be of that much help because I only have experience with her in the lead position. Judging by others' teams, however, the preferred moveset for non-lead Khan is Return / Sucker Punch / Earthquake or Crunch (up to preference) / PuP or Fake Out (PuP for a strong sweeper, Fake Out for a cleaner). As for Gliscor, in theory that should be fine (and that thing always seems to be much better in practice than in theory), but requires you to run Earthquake on Khan for dealing with Tyrantrum, assuming you're keeping Talon.
252+ Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Gliscor: 130-154 (36.7 - 43.5%) -- 9% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal (pretty much the strongest Rock user Earthquake Khan can't handle, Gliscor spread can be adjusted but even with 0 Def you shouldn't have any real problems I guess, and if you're using a slow Gliscor you'll be even better)
Also: 252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Gliscor: 153-181 (43.2 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
252 Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Gliscor: 253-298 (71.4 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Pretty much the two strongest rock attacks in the entire maison. Tyrantrum is pretty nasty, but he's pretty nasty against anything not named Steelix or so, and apart from that, you should be fine
Also: 252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Gliscor: 153-181 (43.2 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
252 Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Gliscor: 253-298 (71.4 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Pretty much the two strongest rock attacks in the entire maison. Tyrantrum is pretty nasty, but he's pretty nasty against anything not named Steelix or so, and apart from that, you should be fine
Edit: afaik, the only non-supereffective attack that OHKOes Khan is Specs Lati@s Draco Meteor. Probably some other ones too, but then I haven't taken those to the face. Use that knowledge how you see fit ;)
edit again: also Tyrantrum's Head Smash, Refrigerate Aurorus's Hyper Beam and Lickilicky's Explosion, but those are pretty much the strongest attacks in the entire maison and the first two can't exactly come in on Khan :)
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DHR-107 I would suggest an Azumarill, I managed a 110 streak with it, Talonflame and Kanga a while back when I was going for the 5 trophies. In my streak I used a Wide Lens because I screwed up and maxed it's HP EVs so I couldn't use Belly Drum and activate a Sitrus berry at full health, but it allowed me to use the more powerful Aqua Tail and made Play Rough more reliable. For Talonflame I would suggest Steel Wing as it's fourth move just for emergency situations against rock types. For Kanga I personally like Crunch over Sucker Punch just because the Maison AI can be kinda crazy so prediction is tough, especially against those ghosts with one attack. If you use him to revenge then Retaliate can be a one-turn nuke, otherwise Earthquake rounds out the coverage nicely
As for my own stuff, I managed to find a partner that leads with Scarf Typhlosion with Sitrus Berry (can't have two Scarfs on a team) Entei in the back! It was off a random trade I had done one day where I was bulk trading so I have no idea who it is but when I figure out which user it is I'll ask if I can add their information so that we can all add him for multis haha. The team I'm running along it right now is Intimidate Hitmontop with Fake Out / Mach Punch / Helping Hand / Wide Guard and Char-Y with Flamethrower / Solar Beam / Ancient Power / Dragon Pulse. At 40 right now and been going well, water types have been giving me some grief, along with some random Flash Fire 'mons, also my partner AI has been somewhat unpredictable when Entei is out but whatever it's still pretty fun. Hopefully I can get a good streak out of it!
As for my own stuff, I managed to find a partner that leads with Scarf Typhlosion with Sitrus Berry (can't have two Scarfs on a team) Entei in the back! It was off a random trade I had done one day where I was bulk trading so I have no idea who it is but when I figure out which user it is I'll ask if I can add their information so that we can all add him for multis haha. The team I'm running along it right now is Intimidate Hitmontop with Fake Out / Mach Punch / Helping Hand / Wide Guard and Char-Y with Flamethrower / Solar Beam / Ancient Power / Dragon Pulse. At 40 right now and been going well, water types have been giving me some grief, along with some random Flash Fire 'mons, also my partner AI has been somewhat unpredictable when Entei is out but whatever it's still pretty fun. Hopefully I can get a good streak out of it!
Wait, it's actually Entei 3 (Eruption/Heat Wave/Extrasensory/Solar Beam) with Sitrus Berry instead of Choice Scarf? I had no idea the game would do that (change an item on a multi partner to avoid item clause); I just assumed they'd never pair two Pokemon with the same item. That's fascinating.
If two Pokemon would hold the same item, the second always holds a Sitrus Berry. The same happened with one of my partner teams of Hydreigon3 and Volcarona 3 (both White Herb users) that I tried using then abandoned when the AI's tendency to Taunt Choiced attackers became too annoying.
Yeah it is, I was really surprised myself as I had never run into that either.. The Sitrus berry works pretty well with it as well as it can help it gain some power on Eruption (>half HP Eruption still does ok), it still spams it despite not being choice-locked. I really wish it was a Power Herb though! It insists on using a non-sun assisted Solar Beam A LOT. Anyway I just lost at 47 to Volcarona which I could not stop Quiver Dancing and it swept me with Hurricane. I feel my team needs fixing, it's way too fire-heavy so opposing fire types and bulky waters are giving me trouble. Obviously Sun is appealing with Eruption Spam but I think it really limits team ideas.. Although I really like it for that damn Solar Beam Entei likes using...