Tournament CAPPL X - Policy Discussion

[shnowshner]

The moment everyone has been waiting for since yesterday — CAPPL X is finally beginning! There's a lot to talk about regarding how our tournament will be structured this year, as things have shaped up for our 10th iteration to be our biggest team tour yet.

I'd like to keep discussion fairly open, so we'll begin with a couple basic questions:

Which tiers should be represented in CAPPL, and how much of each? I will state now that a minimum 3 SV is going to be considered mandatory, unless enough dissent is presented, as the recently introduced CAP updates and release of soon-to-be-named CAP 34 warrants heightened activity to further develop the metagame. Beyond that, I'd like to see what the community is most interested in.

How do we want to expand the pool of participants? Going into this season, I had wanted to increase our number of teams from 6 to 8, which not only adds ~25 more users into the tournament, but also lengthens the tournament overall and lets us push 4 teams into Semifinals instead of 3, avoiding the oft-lamented bye week for first seed. However, I could see interest in simply raising our number of slots, since we tend to struggle with deciding tiers in a way that satisfies everyone. Maybe we do both! It might be horrible! I don't know! Talk about it!

The previous question also leads directly into how Retains and Manager Pricing should be handled. This may be difficult to answer right away, but any initial insight you have is nonetheless appreciated. As a refresher, Manager Prices were at 15k in CAPPL IX, and retains were allowed following this system laid out by spoo.

Okay cool I'm gonna go play Pokerogue see ya;ll in a bit

 

[SHSP]

Which tiers should be represented in CAPPL, and how much of each?

SV/SV/SV/SS/SM/ORAS/BW/DPP stands out to me at first glance. Fits every old gen and at this point I think all of these metas have had enough time to cook across different individual tours, PLs and CLs. I'm aware that some of these are not going to be universally loved, notably the last two with some commentary around BW and DPP being poor fits, but I can't think of too too much that would really push them.

How do we want to expand the pool of participants?

SUPER behind the idea of going from 6 teams to 8. We've had really good manager signups for several straight tours now, and I think even more of a desire for a bigger tour. This would also solve a lot of the issues people have been having about the 6 team format, like the finals bye or the makeup of weeks and all of that. Definitely feels more "legitimate," as nebulous as that sounds. Don't love the idea of making more slots happen in comparison when we can expand to more rosters.

Retains and Manager Pricing should be handled

Assuming we go to 8 teams, I think retains are a little iffy somehow? I don't see an issue with keeping them w/the 6 teams, but expanding to 8 doesn't look amazing with how only so many managers would end up able to retain a number of top names in the pool. I'm sure this can be worked out even with 8 teams, though, and I'm not really invested either way. Manager pricing shouldn't change unless the total budget does.

 

[spoo]

Posting from phone so I’ll keep this short, I think the format just depends on if we want DPP or not. Don’t really think there are options besides last year’s format of 3x SV 2x SS SM ORAS BW or a format of 3x SV + all past gens. I know some people (well, at least one person) want BW cut but I’d see this as a huge regression in terms of pastgen development and tour development as a whole. If you think BW sucks, we certainly won’t improve it by cutting it from the tour; now, BW may need tiering action, but that’s a different discussion.

Also, I’ll do the honors of breaking the news that CAPPL will have a banner prize this year. However, this prize is contingent on us having 8 teams — which is a move I think we should be making regardless of the prize attached — so I strongly believe we should expand to 8 teams instead of 10 slots or staying at 6 teams like usual.

 

[a fairy]

Don't have a horse in this race but I strongly recommend against retains when increasing the size of a team tour for fairness reasons, grats on the banner and all that but there's no good way to do retains in a TT when going from 6->8 IMO

 

[Brigtel]

My view is mostly the same as Spoo. BW is fine, I don't see a reason to cut it.
The bigger problem is DPP, I don't think the tier itself is nearly as bad as it is made out to be, and I'd love to see it included, however there's one argument against it I have to agree with: there's not enough of a playerbase for it and it ends up eating away players that could have played in a different tier. This isn't helped by the fact that there's some overlap between DPP and BW players. If we expand to 8 teams, it could be a real struggle for all of them to get solid players in both tiers.

If we end up not including DPP the default is 2x SS, but I think we could do something different, maybe 2 SM.

 

[dex]

If there is any old gen to receive two slots, it should be SS. Everyone and their moms have played SS, it’s generally one of the more balanced tiers, and it is far easier to find players knowledgeable about SS CAP (and SS metagames in general) than SM. I do not want to encourage more bastardization of test HO, which 2 SM slots facilitates.

That’s only if DPP is dropped. I don’t think it should be, but if it is, 2 SS please and thank you.

 

[Piyush25]

4 SV
2 SS
1 SM
1 ORAS

No bw because fuck tga

 

[Clementine]

add more slots, not more teams
8 teams teamtours tend to be super boring after a while, teams that are out by week 5 will just sandbag their way through the later weeks and teams that are in by week 6 will put random lineups or load stupid stuff (this is especially true for lesser played formats)
also, as it was pointed out before, some tiers don't have enough people playing them to get 8 solid slots with enough support
last tour was 3sv, 2ss, sm, oras, bw
make it 10 slots with dpp + sv OR maybe sm/ss/sv bo3?

also don't axe SM I know it hasn't been talked about but CAPCL with no SM was horrendous let me load ReuniTar again

 

[skippergamez]

IF THERE IS NO DPP I WILL CRY

Edit: Btw I agree with SHSP 3 SV/SS/SM/ORAS/BW/DPP is the way to go.

also no retains lol

 

[Maxouille]

Bo3 sv-ss-sm
Sv1
Sv2 (if bo3 count as sv for the banner thing)
Sm1
Sm2 (two sm cause they can help each other in a very diverse tier)
Dpp (that slot cause there is alway that guy who play an obscur tier at the bottom of the teamcord)

6 slots is the perfect number cause otherwise too many people are prepping alone and it's not fun.

8 teams

 

[Micaiah]

Bo3 newgen (sv ss sm)
Bo3 oldgen (dpp bw oras)
3x sv
2x ss
1x sm

 

[pannu]

X3 sv x4 sm x1 ss

 

[Nultiprise]

SV*6

and add a DPP slot, i dont want to see skippergamezcry

 

[Dj Breloominati♬]

BW is absolutely insufferable to build and play. Prepping for it last time was somehow more gacha and nightmarish than BW OU itself, a feat that is somehow possible. I dont know how to fix it, and the possibility of this tier being picked for TB is somewhat even more concerning.

I do believe that Mono has more structure/skill and less variance in comparison to BW (having played both the tiers to a somewhat decent level).
I realise that CAPCL is our "om tour" and PL is our "oldgen tour" but lets not just lump it in and include it implicitly. If you think I'm being unnecessarily harsh, then open the replays of the recent BW moneytour and see as to how many games were decided based on matchup (I can do this breakdown myself after finals). Please think twice before introducing this coinflip tier into an otherwise competitive tour.

 

[Laurel]

Don’t have a dog in the fight here but pretty sure CAP originated during DPP. Dropping it from the CAP team tour would be a feel’s bad…

 

[shnowshner]

I feel there's more to be said about the positions of DPP and BW in the format, given CAPPL is generally more competitively-driven compared to CL. The prospect of a forum banner, should we increase to 8 slots, will additionally drive in new players and encourage existing ones to put forward extra effort, making this year's CAPPL the largest and most prestigious teamtour we'd ever have.

Unsurprisingly, I am electing to raise team count from 6 to 8. Opinions on the matter have not been uniform, but denying ourselves an opportunity to gain a banner prize and bring in even more players feels like a waste of potential. This decision does in turn raise the question of how retains might work; I've dwelled on this a good bit, since I know a lot of people want retains, but there's no satisfying way of implementing retains that doesn't screw over some teams. Rather than deal with the logistical headache of having 8 teams retain players from a pool of 6, I'd be more comfortable just axing retains altogether this year, that way none of the teams have a chance to secure a choice player, and have an equally negative disposition towards me. I'll leave some time to talk about this more, but you'd need a really elegant system to sway me.

I'd like to get things wrapped up before the weekend if possible, but if we need more time there's no serious rush.

 

[TGA]

3 SV
2 SS
1 SM
1 ORAS
1 BW
having two ss is better than having dpp if we are having eight teams imo

 

[Laurel]

3 SV
2 SS
1 SM
1 ORAS
1 BW
having two ss is better than having dpp if we are having eight teams imo

DPP will be competitive. Trust me the boomers will sign up to play. Nostalgia trumps all.

 

[Mada]

x4 SV
x1 SS
x1 SM
x1 ORAS
x1 BW

or

x3 SV
x1 SS
x1 SM
x1 ORAS
x1 BW
x1 DPP / BO3

SV should clearly get most slots, and even going for half of them can be an option, and I don't see a reason for SS to keep having 2 slots when DPP has been developing quite decently or you can even try and consider other tiers like Mono, who have been trying and developing as well last year, although only 1 of those between all regular CAPs would be weird

 

[Brambane]

x2 Bo3 SV
x2 SS
x2 USUM
x2 ORAS

Bo1 SV is about as goofy as Bo1 DPP. We are oracles and have prognosticated the future of SV; Bo3 shall be how we tread the unstable ground of the current generation. I love DPP and BW as much as anyone, but two slots each meta means someone on your team always has someone to say that your sludge Garbodor+Mega Glalie team vs Lasen isn't going to work. SV is current gen; you should have no issue finding enough support to craft teams for a Bo3 slot. Less overall slots, but you have more building.

 

[Brigtel]

Take a suggestion from Brambane and Mada, do

x3 SV
x1 SS
x1 SM
x1 ORAS
x1 BW
x1 DPP / BO3 SV

Single gen BO3 is very interesting, and Sv deserves it

 

[dex]

x3 SV
x1 SS
x1 SM
x1 ORAS
x1 BW
x1 DPP

I support this specifically. Bo3 sucks for builders, though it’s fun to watch. As someone who has been overworked in team tours, I think it’s best to just have DPP and suck it up if there aren’t that many quality sign ups. Sometimes you get a fodder slot, it happens. I won the first CAPCL while completely foddering BW, it ain’t the end of the world.

 

[Lasen]

Gonna echo dex's sentiment about bo3 making you feel super duper tired as a builder; in CAPCL, both myself and d2 were actively building for every single slot + circuit playoffs and we both felt exhausted by the time week 3 hit. I've also played in a ton of teamtours outside of CAP and the bo3 slot always ends up being a revolving door of the same 5 teams trying to snipe the right order. Not fun, 0/10 do not recommend

 

[Brambane]

Alright, then here is my revision

2x Bo1 SV, but you print out your pokepaste and wrap it around the handle of a screwdriver and meet in the back of the McDonald's parking lot

otherwise agree with
x3 SV
x1 SS
x1 SM
x1 ORAS
x1 BW
x1 DPP

DPP has seen nice progression and growth within the community. BW is continuing to evolve to the point of suffering, might as well use this tournament to twist the knife.

 

[spoo]

I feel like DPP has probably reached the ceiling of development that it’ll get by only being included in CAPCL / side tours. What I mean is, if it’s not good enough for CAPPL now, then it might never be. I wish the tier had a bigger dedicated playerbase as imo that’s the main thing holding it back, but those players might never be there unless the format is featured in a large competitive tour like this one. I think at some point we just have to take the leap and trust that people will sign up. DPP’s not gonna be the most competitive slot ever on its first run in CAPPL but I think the tier has done everything possible to earn its inclusion at this point.